durian Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 My boss has agreed to a £4K budget inc vat (UK) our 212 seat theatre was originally equipped with a berringher eurodesk which I personally hate due to the fact that the line mic switches are on the back of the desk and the phantom power is global and the faders are horrible light and just awful. I replaced that with a Allen and Heath Saber series 40:16:16 which was well worn and has subsequently been retired and the eurodesk has now had to take its place again. This week a couple of channels have started throwing out noise with nothing but a stereo o/p connected to an amp to find where the noise is coming from. It is around 7 years old and most of its life has been spent collecting dust. Time for a new desk. I have spent a couple of days googling and so far I still like A&H and have been looking at soundcraft too. This is what I consider I must have: 12 mic inputs AND at least 6 stereo I/p plus a couple of spare (im not over keen on using two mono strips for one stereo channel) channel selected phantommic/line in the strip8 group o/pstereo o/pmono o/p6 aux senddecent channel meters and group meters What would be nice:compression on each mic channel Im not really looking for an all digital desk with singing dancing effects, we have outboard for that.In our environment an analogue desk is best suited but I am not ruling out a digital desk if it has at least 24 channel faders. so, if you would like to add your experience and tips and suggestions I would be most grateful.I am probably looking to purchase in september this year but have until june to cost up and justify to the boss. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 From the request of compression on each channel, I gather you're looking for a recommendation for Yamaha mixers? The IM8 ticks most of those boxes. I'd also look at the A&H GL series. Very good desks, though not as many stereo channels or compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 IIRC you can customise some of the Soundcraft models, to include additional stereo channels? of course, not sure how much this customisation costs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave SA Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Check out the Presonus Studiolive 24-4-2 for your requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 My school currently has a yamaha IM8-24 in our theatre. I like the desk very much. Well laid out, well equipped (compressors on each mic channel) and sound very nice. The Im8-24 only has 4 stereo inputs as opposed to the 6 you specified though. The only other thing I would add is that these desks are big! In both size and weight these desks are on the large size, especially depth, Just my 2p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontech Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 You could pick up a yamaha ls9 16ch for about £3.5k if you shop around. Then add a few in's-outs with the money you save. That would be my suggestion as they are the most used in my enviroment so are easily spread. Not the greatest desk to use but certainly easy to pick up and for visiting tech's are friendly. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaudio Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Another LM8 user here. Certainly ticks all the boxes. Can't think of another analoge desk that offers comps on every channel, that isn't silly money. That said, I'm not a fan of the single control compression. I rarely use it, and it certainly isn't flexible - but each to their own. It has 4 full stereo inputs, as well as 4 stereo fx return channels - which might be acceptable in your situation? However, I'd certainly be tempted to go digital. Sell some of your rack equipment to raise extra funds, as much of it would probably become obsolete. Options out there, LS9-16, the X-32 from Behringer, the A&H GLD range. Roland M380. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I've got a Yamaha bigger mixer - the series before this one, and while I love it, I really can't see the point any longer in considering anything that isn't digital. When digits were evolving, analogue was solid and safe - but now it's clear that individual faders and rotaries are such an expensive control feature - that simply can't be cheap or even comparative any longer. The LM series is 4 year old nearly, and as such, is now an elderly design (on current time lines). From a sales perspective, the production span of designs is getting shorter. Buying a desk and expecting a long lifespan is still possible, but a five year old mixer might be too expensive to fix simply because dismantling a large device takes a long time. The new digital desks have moved on to the old TV repair system - swap a board, and see if it's fixed? This is then cheaper. My desk now has one channel that has an on-off fader. I've got plenty, so I've not bothered. Shipping a large format desk is not cheap - and you pay both ways, plus the repair time. If a small desk has to go back - it's so much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durian Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 I am most grateful for the input... having spent another day looking stuff up I think I am settled on a pre sonus 24.4.2 however spending time at the forums of presonus I have read quite a few horrow stories about the board dying in the middle of a show.... eeeekkk I looked at the LS yamaha, thats quite nice and the single control comp has to be better than nothing with students shouting in to mics. I can comp on the pre sonus so I just have to satisfy myself that if we buy one its not going to let us down..... Who wants a mixer in a live venue that is likely to crash?...... that said the ps 24.4.2 looks like an amazing tool and as all our staff live on ipads the ps 24.4.2 is a genius tool on the face of it, so a little more research to come.. thanks again for you advice, keep it coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durian Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 I spoke with digital village (uk) today and they were able to tell me that out of the 60 x 24.4.2 they have sold, 4 have been returned, 2 for freezing up and two for psu faults. they are serviced and turned round inside two weeks, from north london....... I simply can't afford a break down in a busy theatre but I so love the presonus board.... Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. its amazing I also discovered a berringher digital desk, x32 I think it was called.... which actually didn't look to bad .....but when I showed it to our sound tech in dance she scowled at me. ** laughs out loud **......... reluctantly I have decided to stay analogue (which is good for teaching) and now considering http://www.dv247.com...nd-mixer--33345 http://www.dv247.com...nd-mixer--32601 http://www.dv247.com...-console--50005 and I really like the yamaha and the soundcraft.. the yammy has 4 stereo inputs which is ideal for my two Qlabs and two cd machines, plus it has the one button compressor, which is a great help with out of control students. I have Drawmer outboard compressors and lexicon/alesis fx in the patchbay for shows...... decisions decisions......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OllieDuff Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 From the request of compression on each channel, I gather you're looking for a recommendation for Yamaha mixers? The IM8 ticks most of those boxes. I'd also look at the A&H GL series. Very good desks, though not as many stereo channels or compression. +1 for A&H GL series. We've got the GL3300 in our venue which has been in there for years, the only thing that doesn't work is one of the backlights on the VU meters. 16 mono in, 8 stereo pairs in, 8 groups, 8 aux, mic/line and phantom selected by channel. I believe this slightly exceeds your core spec but lacks the compression. Used ones seem to be commonly available for less than 2 grand, and you could buy a LOT of outboard with the leftover money... A&H's replacement for it, the 3800, seems to be going at around £3.5K and has a bit more functionality e.g. larger matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durian Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 Shipping a large format desk is not cheap - and you pay both ways, plus the repair time. If a small desk has to go back - it's so much cheaper. tell me about it:) ive got a saber series 40:16:16 I would dearly love to send to cornwall. ** laughs out loud ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Analogue is good for teaching....I said that in about 1998 - when I couldn't afford digital. I used the rationale that in an analogue desk, it was so easy to follow the signal, in from the back, through the gain into the eq, then going past all the busses where all or bits of each channel strip could be mixed in, then out from the channel fader, into the various output functions. At the same time starting to no longer in the recording studio to talk about desks with returns in favour of inline desks. All these are essentially history lessons now. Students have no past knowledge to relate it to, so can understand in exactly the same way how each digital desk works, but using the various faciities as plug-ins, able to be placed in a huge variety of places in the signal chain from in to out. Lighting people find it simple to teach how to operate lighting controls - when almost every one is different. Sound people have to face the same issue - if you learn on Roland, then Yamaha will be different - but they understand the building blocks. Every student now has access to eq with variable Q, and a visual way of seeing what you are hearing - which with the usual 6 knob analogue designs is nowhere near as simple. So somebody who understands how eq 'sounds' can do the same things on different brands. The only practical difference being how to activate the feature. If the new Behringer is as good as people are suggesting, then the slightly snobbish giggle when the B word is used will soon vanish. Remember Skoda cars when they were brown, horrible and the butt of thousands of jokes? I bet most 16 year olds see them now as flashy, fast cars used by the Police, rather than rust buckets only slightly more use than a skip! Sound in schools has been centred on Cubase or Logic for years now - and digital hasn't been a problem there. The sooner digital is the norm, and analogue the quaint, the better! I think that I'm going to be buying one of these Behringers - too late for this season, but for next ....... I just need to squeeze another 6 months from the Yamaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durian Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 @ OLLYDUFF sadly I am not in a posistion to consider the second hand market, university purchasing is a nightmare for capital bidding, but thanks for your thoughts :) @paulears Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. thanks, yes, you make a lot of sense but, I remember the day our heads of dept decided in a 'move forward' there was no need for a £130K recording studio anymore 'now the kids have laptops' "so, what do you want me to do?" "we could put most of it in a skip" "ok" Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. they had no idea what they had, a 128 track apple mac sawtooth G3 midi studio, hand built wiring, allen and heath 40/16/16/ the first ever cubase in the uk, amazing outboard and rack synths like the orbit, the proteus range, the kurweil range, fostex and then adat..... yeah like im going to put all that in a skip. I am in a unique place to most 'commercial' techs here.. I am in a university, where we tend to hang on to stuff... if I am hanging on to it, I want it working and being used, until it dies a natural death. where we are my students see a lot 'old gear'... they love it.... especially when I fire up a leevers rich at 15ips and play broadcast content :) we are a very busy theatre supported by lottery, southeast arts and a bunch of other stuff, so teaching stuff aside I need a mixer that can be left on 365 days a year and always work when you put the fader up........ :) I can imagine last summer for our avengers conference that paul o grady would not wait for a pre sonus to reboot! http://blogs.chi.ac.uk/theavengers/ and yes, that is me at the allen and heath in the gallery behind the scenes pictures and I still have to say, personally, having had a berringher eurodesk, I really do not like the thing one bit. cheap faders, horrible layout, line mic on the back of the desk! ... who ever thought of that should be re employed as a bus driver. global phantom, yuk, global +4db or -10db . 60mm faders. omfg! :) having said that I would purchase the x32 board, but if I am honest, our theatre would be better served with a big old yamaha Analogue is good for teaching.... . I used the rationale that in an analogue desk, it was so easy to follow the signal, in from the back, through the gain into the eq, then going past all the busses where all or bits of each channel strip could be mixed in, then out from the channel fader, into the various output functions. I think we did use that rationale a lot, I think today, an hour or two at the pre sonus forums u will fiind some users who have a different view. In the price/market war I am not convinced anything 'digital' under 10K is worth a look in a serious venue like a fully funded live theatre with 12 radio mics and half a dozen line inputs running for two hours...... for a touring professional company my heart is set on analogue yamaha :) Analogue is good for teaching....Sound in schools has been centred on Cubase or Logic for years now - and digital hasn't been a problem there. The sooner digital is the norm, and analogue the quaint, the better! I am in education at degree level for 25 years classrooms/studios are not live university theatres analouge will never be able to replace anything that needs to boot up in my humble opinion :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I also discovered a berringher digital desk, x32 I think it was called.... which actually didn't look to bad .....but when I showed it to our sound tech in dance she scowled at me. ** laughs out loud **......... We just don't know yet whether that scowl is appropriate or misplaced. Sure, 'tis a lot of bang for the buck, but the jury is out on how much use you'll need to make of that three year warranty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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