working hours on long production days

[mark_s]

I'm struggling to see why this is budget-related. 1 person working 22 hours or 2 people working 11 hours: they both cost the same but the latter is safer. You could even push the boat out and have 2 people doing 7 hours plus one doing 8!

 

Not necessarily - if you're talking freelancers, paying two people their day rate may well be more expensive than paying one person their 'long' day rate. Multiply that by a few for the several crew who are on-site, and the difference could be considerable. Not that I am condoning this in any way, shape or form - we all work long hours sometimes for various reasons, but planning for a crew to do 22 hours straight is insanely stupid.

[Just Some Bloke]

I'm struggling to see why this is budget-related. 1 person working 22 hours or 2 people working 11 hours: they both cost the same but the latter is safer. You could even push the boat out and have 2 people doing 7 hours plus one doing 8!

 

Not necessarily - if you're talking freelancers, paying two people their day rate may well be more expensive than paying one person their 'long' day rate. Multiply that by a few for the several crew who are on-site, and the difference could be considerable. Not that I am condoning this in any way, shape or form - we all work long hours sometimes for various reasons, but planning for a crew to do 22 hours straight is insanely stupid.

Good point. You can tell I work in theatre where we pay by the hour! For us it's very easy to do the right thing.

[Seano]

Therein lies the problem. Until we can get rid of this whole 'the show must go on' attitude, clients will try to cut costs and force suppliers into unsustainable situations.

 

The problem isn't the "show must go on" attitude at all imo, its the "I can't turn this job down, or I may never work again" attitude that makes freelancers and casuals so vulnerable to this kind of nonsense.

[brainwave-generator]

I'm struggling to see why this is budget-related. 1 person working 22 hours or 2 people working 11 hours: they both cost the same but the latter is safer. You could even push the boat out and have 2 people doing 7 hours plus one doing 8!

 

Not necessarily - if you're talking freelancers, paying two people their day rate may well be more expensive than paying one person their 'long' day rate. Multiply that by a few for the several crew who are on-site, and the difference could be considerable. Not that I am condoning this in any way, shape or form - we all work long hours sometimes for various reasons, but planning for a crew to do 22 hours straight is insanely stupid.

 

All true, but then a point beyond that - a crew member in his 8th hour is likely to be more efficient than a crew member in his 24th hour. After a long time on site, everyone has a habit of turning into zombies and wandering around lifelessly and not only being unsafe, but just not being very good. So in terms of value of money, it may not work out that much more expensive to book 2 people than 1 person on a double day, since the productivity is likely to be increased. At the 'changeover' point, a single crew member is already looking forward to the end of the day where as a second crew member will be coming into it, keen to crack on.

[kerry davies]

Very good point indeed Seano, but surely if a PM sent you a 22 hour call sheet your charges would escalate sufficiently for you to hire a back-up? And please don't say that the PM would insist it were you in person otherwise he lays himself wide open to HMRC and all sorts of fines, imprisonment and backcharges for tax evasion. Not even I was that daft when I used to hire freelancers.

 

I agree that it does happen and is more prevalent in our game than almost any other, but that is no reason to allow it to continue.

[Roderick]

The problem isn't the "show must go on" attitude at all imo, its the "I can't turn this job down, or I may never work again" attitude that makes freelancers and casuals so vulnerable to this kind of nonsense.

That is a fair point but the "show must go on" syndrome is still playing heavily with event organisers.

Certainly in corporate events I see more and more that budgets are stuck at 'last years budget' if not reduced. At the same time the client is demanding the latest technology and gadgets they saw at some other event. Michelin star dinner on a McDonalds budget seems to be the trend.

And too often the labour budget is sacrificed to pay for the brightest projector, the latest nodding bucket to make the CEO look like a rockstar, etc.

 

I realise that the same argument applies, 'I may loose this client if I don't give them what they want', but where does it stop?

When do you reach a point where you have to say 'it can't be done'?

 

And another thing to add to the mix. AFter a 22 hour day you aren't likely to do any work the following day, are you?

So not only is your hourly rate reduced by working too many hours for your day fee, you now also loose out on work the next day.

[jacethebase]

I love doing long days :) Can reap it in! £220 a day flat rate (10hours) then £25 a hour

[Peter Tovey]

I love doing long days :) Can reap it in! £220 a day flat rate (10hours) then £25 a hour

 

Brilliant.

 

Whilst I'm sure your informed and incisive contribution will be appreciated by all, I fear you may have missed the main thrust of this debate - posted as it is in the safety forum.

 

It does neatly illustrate several of the points made by earlier posters though...

 

Pete

[Jivemaster]

Well I know how useless I was after a 7am call and midnight finish with less than half an hour's drive each way, and I know how little I achieved the next day too! It's not the money -that was a good rate job. But the simple tiredness that day and the next were a significant safety issue.

[Pete McCrea]

I'm with Jivemaster on this. I find it increasingly hard to recover from long (18hr type ) days. Probably because I have a 1.5 and 3 year old that demand attention and don't know when you've come crawling in at 04:00...

 

Not entirely sure about Jacethebase's comment - tbh there aren't many guys I know that I would pay £220/day to. And not many other companies I know that would pay these sorts of rates unless you're fairly high up the food chain or BBC type people, or with high levels of responsibility. Fairplay if you're getting those rates for you as a person on you're own.

 

I think it comes down to the key problem of people putting up with it and being scared that there will always be someone who's prepared work longer/cheaper etc. We find budgets are being pushed, but that with a decent dialogue with the client, they can often be made to understand that we need to accomodate/crew the job in such a way as to ensure the success of their event, and our people.

 

It would be interesting to see how the industry would fair if as a whole, sub contractors included, we all had to adhere to the WTD. I for one know that I work more than 48 hours on average a week - I run a business - try working less than 48 hours a week in this industry. But if it was brought in such that checks were made an employers could find then selves in real risk of heavy penalties, then do you think we'd see changes in the industry, and our clients waking up to the damage to their CSR reputation that getting thumped with a £2m fine for thraping their crew could give them?

 

Maybe it takes few more deaths for the HSE to really turn the spot light on our industry? Thankfully I don't know anyone that has died, but I know of atleast three colleagues that have had very close calls..

[Jivemaster]

IIRC company directors were a problem case for the WTR because you are still a director when yo go home, even when you are rested and sleeping. If you are the keyholder director then the police and a few other agencies may need you at any time.

 

The people I worked with on the 17 hour day had a 100 mile journey home and they said it was hairy. BUT we still think the show must go on.

[sjbvision]

Surely a long day rate is calculated from your day rate:

 

Eg: day Rate £240 for 12 hrs, (it makes the maths easier)

 

Therefore for any extra hours, over 12, you work you are going to charge at £20/hr

 

 

A 18hr day would be £240 +6hrs at £20 = £360

 

It doesn't make any logical sense to offer a longer day and reduce your daily/hourly rate? The only person who is losing out is you and the client wins for get staff at a cheaper rate.

 

Yes in my time I have done some very stupid days(in my book) upto 42hour days, now looking back I think why! It would have been so much better for me to work a shift and then get a second crew in to reduce the strain.

 

Sorry for the ramble I hope it makes sense.

 

We ony get one shot at this game, lets try and stay in it as long as possible.

[GreatBigHippy]

I've been following this discussion with interest as it is one of my bugbears in the industry.

 

One thing I'd like to see nailed down though is what everyone here thinks actually counts as a long day?

 

Most of my friends work in "normal" jobs where 8hr working days, 5 days a week are the norm.

 

So, in your opinions when does a day become long? 10hrs.. 12? Because as far as I am aware (from the tour schedules that come though my door) those are normal working days.

[trussmonkey]

in my previous job with a well respected rigging company (now engulfed by a larger american lx company) we tried to keep riggers hours down. we could have the riggers work for upto 10 hours with the option of extending it to 12 hours. obviously sometimes things go wrong on site and we can ask them to stay. sometimes we could negotiate another shifts pay depending on the situation. we always built in realistic schedules and allowed for this when quoting.

 

until everyone realises that long hours are counter productive (touring is the exception) then nothing will change. if you feel uncomfortable about doing a 20 hour shift dont do it. - simples. the choice is always yours.

 

when I used to tour I never did a 12 hour day it was ALWAYS longer. up at 0600/0700 for the load in and back on the bus by 0100 but sometimes you do get a break in the afternoon when the band sound checks etc.

 

TM

[ianl]

apart from touring as has been said (dont get me started on self drive touring)

when I used to be self employed I charged:

half day (minimum charge) up to 5 hours

day - 5 to 10 hours

day and a half - 10 to 15 hours

two days - a second over 15 hours up to 20 hours

 

the result of this very few days where I worked over about 13/14 hours and the few where it went into 2 days were generally negotiated on site (do you mind staying on another 2 hours, ok but it will cost you the extra half day)or aranged in advance that I did the first "day" and my subcontractor (mate) did the second "day"