New Noise Limit Regulations

[Guest lightnix]

I hear through the grapevine that our friends at the HSE are about to circulate draft copies of proposed new Noise Limit Regulations, for comment and consultation purposes.

 

These regulations are said to have "hideous" implications for the entertainments industry and to "bear the hallmarks of cultural prejudice", whatever that means.

 

Apparently, even an unamplified orchestra will find it difficult, if not impossible to comply with them, in their current form.

 

I have no other information than this, but it would seem that this is something the entertainment trade associations and unions should be getting their teeth into. If you are a member of such an organisation, contact them to find out what they know and what they are doing.

 

This, along with the ludicrous Public Entertainment Licencing laws seems like yet another attack on live entertainments, at a time when there are already several "downward pressures" on the business. Or am I just being paranoid ?

[Bryson]

Yes, I believe they're on it.

 

As far as I'm aware the ABTT and the MU are both on this little "issue." The regulations as proposed would indeed make it impossible to perform things like: the 1812 overture (just too loud) or anything by Wagner (just too long). It would also make being a classical percussionist pretty much impossible, and would end up preventing you from rehearsing and performing in the same day...

 

Overall, not good. I think the MU are persuing some form of higher levels for music on the grounds of some studies yet to be completed on the difference in effect between "wanted" noise, such as music, and "unwanted noise" such as machinery working. Which begs the question: If I don't like your music (ie: it's "unwanted") can I be exempted the gig on H&S grounds? :P

 

Having said all that, hearing loss is prevalant amongst professional musicians, and I'm sure we've all met a deaf sound engineer in our time. Perhaps the HSE are right this time and we do need to turn it down a bit...

[Guest lightnix]

There are also studies that suggest that even the constant low level hiss from a set of headphones can damage hearing over time. What do we do about that, refuse to go on cans ?

 

Sources of loud noise are everywhere, it seems a little off that they seem to be (as with Public Entertainments Licencing) picking on live music again.

 

As for deafness in musos and noise boys, there are special earplugs available now which drop levels evenly across the audio spectrum, so that hopefully should become a thing of the past. Surely a greater threat to public health are the levels of volume produced by Walkman-like devices, but trying to put a ban or limit on them would go against the interests of large corporations and we can't have that, can we ?

 

Sorry if I'm starting to rant, but I think the HSE are way off the mark on this one. There are far more urgent things that need attention.

[NickLee]

It sounds to me like a bureacrat has got an idea into their head and thrown out a proposal without any real understanding of what it's implications are. One would hope this will get the chewing up it deserves.

 

--N

[Bryson]

there are special earplugs available now which drop levels evenly across the audio spectrum, so that hopefully should become a thing of the past.

 

I'm not sure that you'd ever persuade people to wear these, though. I wear plugs when I'm lighting, but a noise boy? They'll never do it. Anyway, I'm not sure they're a good idea - if the noise boy can't tell if it's too loud because he has plugs in, what are the consequences for the audience?

 

Walkmans (Walkmen?) are, I agree, one of the major causes of hearing loss - or at least will be in a few years. Car stereos, too. But they're not really possible to legislate against - if the people aren't at work, it much more difficult.

 

As Nick says, I think it's really a case of someone not really thinking through all the possibilities before releasing draft legislation. I'm sure in factories, it will lead to very real and achieveable safety gains. I think it's less a case of "them" trying to get "us," but more a case of "them" forgetting that we even exist...

[Guest lightnix]

I wear plugs when I'm lighting, but a noise boy? They'll never do it...

Sadly true most of the time, although I do know a few who have spent a couple hundred on their own tailor made ones. It may be too late for many in the business, but with good education, maybe the next generation will take these things more seriously. As for the audience, levels can often be monitored visually / electronically, although not being a noise boy I can't really comment on how effective this is.

 

I think it's less a case of "them" trying to get "us," but more a case of "them" forgetting that we even exist...

Good point, entertainments has generally been way down the list of HSE priorities.

 

As a side point, I just read the following definition of "consultation" in today's Sunday Telegraph (page 18):

 

"[The process] whereby bureaucrats in Brussels and Whitehall, bent on introducing some crazily unworkable piece of legislation, go through the pretence of conferring with the industry they are regulating, when they have no intention of listening to a word that is said and deliver precisely the proposal they first thoght of."

 

Oddly enough it appears in an article about Linn, the makers of high quality domestic audio equipment and their problems with something called WEEE, the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment directive.

[owen_mcauley]

Excuse me guys, I'm a noise boy! And I never go out without my custom plugs! (Although someone did steal my last pair :( )

 

I know and have worked with a lot of sound techs/ engineers who are deaf as posts and do not wish to go down that road.

 

I always use a dB meter when mixing for medium scale events and run FOH around 100 dB (hopefully pretty even coverage!) Don't ask about onstage levels!

 

Hope some people will check this out

British Tinitus Assocoation

 

Owen

[Brian]

I think that, as in any profession, there are those who are prepared to take their own short term and, more importantly, long term health seriously and those that evolution will weed out.

 

Any sound engineer who is serious about their career will be well aware of the dangers of prolonged exposure to loud noises; it is not a new story. Many professional musicians have woken up to the danger in the last few years, witness the increased use in IEMs.

 

I have in the past had a professional woodwork shop under my management. In that section there were people who took safety seriously and there were those that didn't. Seeing someone chop a finger of is a lesson to us all. It's not big or clever to ignore good working practice.

 

Most health and safety law is nothing new. It's very rare to find stuff that tells you what to do or what not to do. It's down to our old friend risk assessment. When properly, done most risk assessments give you a way of working which is common sense and which is the way most 'professionals' in that field would do things anyway if they valued their careers. As new research arrives then things evolve. It's always been like that.

 

Brian

[Brian]

From the HSE website...

 

When is the Physical Agents (Noise) Directive being implemented in this country?

 

The Directive came into force on 15 February 2003 and Member States have three years to put it into their legislation, so it must be implemented in the UK by 15 February 2006.

 

In 2004 the HSE will conduct a formal consultation exercise on the draft regulations and guidance.

[david.elsbury]

Okay, this is the most appropriate topic I could find when doing a search so I'll tack onto the end of it (mods, please split it if you feel the need.)

 

I did (lit) a gig last night and the promoter handed each of us a set of disposable earplugs. It was my first gig with plugs, and it made the experience much much better for me. So I got to thinking this morning, maybe I should get a set of custom plugs made up.

Now, I also want to get an IEM at some point shortly, so if I got some custom moulds made for those, can I use them just as earplugs? Or does it not work like that. Can the mould of my ears be used for both the plugs and the in-ears?

I realise that I'm in NZ, but if you could share with me your answers to the following questions, it'll give me a good starting point to base my enquiries on.

* Do I see an audiologist / my doctor / hearing specialist / ??

* How much have you paid for yours, if you have them?

* What dB reduction should I get?

* Should I get "musician" type, which I belive attenuate all frequencies evenly, or should I get some other type?

* Are they easy to fit? Take care of? How long do they last?

* Anything else I should know?

 

Thanks very much

Regards

David

 

EDIT: For what it's worth, the IEM's are to be used either as part of a comms system as a stage tech, doing stand and mic repositioning and stuff, or for when (as last night) I'm doing LX for a gig and still want to hear the vocals, last night I had a wedge with just the vocals, but that was pretty loud.

[london sound]

Just done some gigs in Switzerland, the limit is 93db averaged over a one hour period, however you can go louder if free earplugs are made available. I'm not sure how much louder but the 93db is for indoors and out!!!.

It is quit a challenge to work within these limits, hoewever the local chaps have a few tricks to get around the regs but the fines can be very stiff you also have to keep a record of the sound levels for a period of time.

 

 

 

Ian

[Jivemaster]

After working to power cutting sound limiters one set to 83dB and one set to 87dB and having major conplaints from the guests each time. The paying public do NOT understand and cannot party in the quiet. Please dont applaud the Groom's speech or the Band/disco will have to stop early to keep the noise dose down!!!

 

Also, off topic, The paying public often needs a darkened room to party and several venues have increased the level of emergency lighting so much that punters do not go there.

[david.elsbury]

Another edit... (I'm sorry...)

I also want, if possible, to be able to hear people talking (loudly, admittedly) in my ear. Last night, guys had to yell in my ear to be heard, but they could be heard. If I get 'real' earplugs, will this still happen? Or will the reduction be so great we have to write notes to each other?

And, for what it's worth, I don't really mix sound at the moment, so I don't need to be able to judge levels accurately.

Thanks

David

[Mr.Si]

There are companies that make "Active Noise Control" products - that you can have a normal conversation with your friend/collegue/whatever, while wearing them, but if you for instance are on a firing line, and are shooting clay pigeons or what ever, then the cut out that transient, and then you go back to normal again.

 

Some Cans to this by creating a signal with the opposite phase to the problem sound, but I have heard that this sounds really wierd.

 

It's not something that I know a whole lot about, even though I'm an acoustics and noise control Consultant in my day job (I've been it for a year).

 

So this noise debate is becoming more apparent, what with EHO's wanting the absurd "Inaudibility" criteria rather than the 10dB or what ever, below existing background.

 

also with many people using the "noise at works" regulations for live sound etc in relation to paying punter's hearing protection. Yes it makes sense for people who work in Entertainment venues to have protection, because otherwise they could have problems.

 

But the 1st Action Level is an SEL or Leq (I can't remember which) of 85dB (over 8hrs)

Which equates to 100dB over 15 mins.

 

This is not very high, esp for big concerts etc, gtr amps on stage contantly kick out much more than that, and if it's a boy band, you're gonna get a really painful constant 1-3kHz screaming from the girl dominant audience - at way over 100dB

 

So yeah, with the Musicians themselve breaking the law by doing what they do, and the audience also doing the same, it's a bit messed up.

 

This is where my day Job conflicts with my other job - Sound Engineering at mainly rock oriented gigs!

And now they're cramping down on the Low frequency noise too. - that's not easy to stop.

 

Sounds fun doesn't it!

[the kid]

After the gig I went to at the empire all staff had plugs they looked like disposable one's, do audiences in general get offered them? To hear my friends I discovered I had to put a finger in my ear, god knows why. So I'm looking in to getting some decent plugs as well.