mixing desk with monitor faders

[S&L]

I have had a few suggestions and whispers concerning work that would need me to upgrade to a bigger mixing desk. when not hiring my main desk for the last six months has been a peavey RQ2318. working mostly with rock bands in small venues this has been more than adequate and actually a lot quieter in practice for live work than people had suggested it would be. it's been a breeze to use for someone like myself (an improver?) working in that environment and has been more than robust. I have got used to and rather attached to the monitor mix faders - 2 faders, on the monitor aux channels - and I really like using them compared to master aux knobs. they allow me to grab and control monitor levels very easily. I also use the mono sum fader for one band in particular, using it as a monitor signal for drums and keys at the back of the stage - this seems to work well for the guys involved and the drummer mixes this with a click track from the keys on a few tracks and gets exactly what he needs in his in ear monitors.

so as I said I am getting rather attached to these faders and am loath to part with them but may have to consider a larger analogue desk if I get a serious offer - same sort of work but slightly larger venues, more complex bands with more channel requirements.

I confess that I don't have that much experience working with group faders as I haven't really needed them thus far but if I start mic'ing whole drum kits, percussionists or lots of backing vocals I may need to work with group faders and I am sure I can get my head round this quickly enough. my main concern is that the more professional analogue desks I have seen sub £1000 (lets say five or six hundred second hand) don't seem to have faders for aux send channels. do I need to give up my faders or are there analogue desk options that will do this? or am I missing a trick with patching?

[brainwave-generator]

Well, the options really..

 

Allen & Heath GL series desks (2200, 2400, 3300 etc) which can SOMETIMES be had on the cheap, depending on condition, would suit you ideally.

 

You can run the desk in:

 

FOH mode, where all the subgroups are on faders, and all the aux sends are on knobs.

MONS mode, where al the subgroups are on knobs, and all the aux sends are on faders.

Split mode, where you can individually set some subgroups to faders and some aux sends to faders.

 

So Split mode is probably what you want. This isn't a common feature so the GL range might suit you.

 

Obviously on all big expensive desks, all outputs are on fader.

 

The only other thing you can do, is you can buy a desk with more inputs than you need, then just stick a jack lead from the output of the Aux 1 socket to say, Channel 17, and turn the Aux Master 1 knob to 0dB and leave it there. (Make sure Ch17 Aux 1 send is off!) Then send the post-fader direct out from Ch 17 into the monitor amp. This way, you can use the Ch17 fader as your Aux Master fader. Also, you can use the Ch17 EQ and insert socket to process the Aux 1 output.

 

I know it sounds a bit complicated but it's really not, you're just routing the Aux Output through a channel strip on the desk to get fader control and some EQ. You do need a desk with a Post Fader Direct Out though. Just be careful. If it's a pre-fader out, you'll get the EQ change but the fader won't do anything.

[Simon Lewis]

There aren't so many desks with subgroup faders and faders for auxiliaries. However, have a look at the Allen & Heath GL (and ML) series desks. It should be easy to find (say) a second hand GL2200 and you can switch subgroups with aux masters to flip between FOH style operation and monitor desk use. There are several switches, so it's possible to have a mix of these functions.

 

 

[paulears]

A few years back I had a series of jobs coming up that really needed lots of ins to outs, and as digital desks then didn't make this kind of thing simple - think Yamaha 01/02/03 time, I spotted a big format Yamaha analogue (A GA32) on the Yamaha UK site. Yamaha UK didn't want to sell this model, and in the end, Yamaha in Germany got me one through a German outlet. This had main stereo out, plus ten faders on the centre panel - similar to the A&H but with a useful feature where aux 1-4 could have a button prodded to disconnect the aux pots on each channel so 1-4 had unity gain. The upshot being that you could use faders 1 to 4 to create a useful selective mix out for maybe infills, or video feeds where the relevant aux on could just set up a simple extra output. They've gone now, of course - but I really like it.

[Fingers]

+1 for the big yamaha analogue desks.<BR><BR>Our school has an IM8-24 with 8 group faders and 8 aux faders as well as the standard mono and stereo outs, and I believe that these are still in some form of production. I quite like it, versatile, well layed out and well equipped however but they are big desks! I wouldn't want to be lugging this around on a tour! Again, they are not very easy to come by, especially in the sercond hand market.<BR><BR>I too prefer faders for aux' and groups. I find it easier to operate in a similar fasion to Dave Rat's compression stratagy (I.e compress the vcas (groups))

[mal421]

Another possibility , if money is an issue is the Yamaha MX400. These have faders for all Aux masters, bizarrly there are 5 auxes. They appear every now and then on a well known auction site and generally sell for under £300 ish. They are big heavy desks and are not in the same league as the GL's.

[Bobbsy]

...or the discontinued Yamaha MX200 had 4 Aux faders. Only two were pre fade but if that's enough for you you should find some cheap deals around.

[Pete Alcock]

Hi S&L,

 

Have you considered the Behringer Xenyx XL range. Aux 1 and 2 and FX Return 1 and 2 all on faders (strangeley similar to a Midas Venice ;-) ).

 

Xenyx Product Page.

 

I picked up an A&H ML3000/24 on eBay recently for £1500. That has sends on faders, and I agree it's a nice facility to have.

 

Pete.

[Bobbsy]

Or, if you can find a good deal on an 01V96, like many Yamaha digital mixers it has a neat feature where you can switch all the faders to adjust the Aux sends. I use this a lot for setting up monitor feeds on my DM1000--a push of a button and your faders can be any of the 8 auxes so, rather than just a master send, you can do a series of monitor mixes.

[S&L]

thanks guys - truly stunned once again by the input...I'm trying to stay away from digital at the moment as I find analogue so intuitive for me but I know there will come a time when I have to get to grips. I had no idea the group faders worked that way on allen and heath so that's really useful info as is the patching solution. I can now keep my eye out for and A&H or yamaha in the fullness of time. the xenyx would actually do me if I got that 'need to get started tomorrow' call - perhaps not in the same league but it would do fine in the environments it would be needed. thank again!

[dbuckley]

Ha - I misunderstood that one; I assumed the OP was looking for multiple faders on the channel rather than just the masters.

 

The only desk I knew like that was the Hill monitor desk, and I doubt there is many of those still in existance...

[indyld]

the xenyx would actually do me if I got that 'need to get started tomorrow' call - perhaps not in the same league but it would do fine in the environments it would be needed. thank again!

 

In a similar vein, one of the larger Mackies, Onyx sommat or other, 24 channel I recall and with 8 Aux, with Group Swap option allowing you to use faders for either.

 

Edit: Actually come to think of it, I think that both Aux and Group masters are faders, the Swap button just puts either Aux or Group on the longer throw faders.

 

Found a pic of the one I was thinking of:

 

http://www.digitalsystemsmedia.net/images/Mackie%20Onyx%202480.jpg

[Wilflet]

Ha - I misunderstood that one; I assumed the OP was looking for multiple faders on the channel rather than just the masters.

 

The only desk I knew like that was the Hill monitor desk, and I doubt there is many of those still in existance...

 

midas legend has separate monitor faders on each channel (http://www.midasconsoles.com/images/content/products/product_shots/l3000/l3000-top.jpg zoom in a bit to see them clearly)

but even if this was what the op is after itd be out of the price range somewhat

[TomM]

Ha - I misunderstood that one; I assumed the OP was looking for multiple faders on the channel rather than just the masters.

 

The only desk I knew like that was the Hill monitor desk, and I doubt there is many of those still in existance...

 

midas legend has separate monitor faders on each channel (http://www.midasconsoles.com/images/content/products/product_shots/l3000/l3000-top.jpg zoom in a bit to see them clearly)

but even if this was what the op is after itd be out of the price range somewhat

 

That looks like fader per output though, which a lot of desks have.

 

The unique thing of the Hill desk, so I'm told, was that on every channel strip you had a fader for every output, so fader per output per input if you like. The only modern desks doing that are digital desks when you put sends on faders (in Yamaha speak).

 

T

[Bobbsy]

The only modern desks doing that are digital desks when you put sends on faders (in Yamaha speak).

 

T

 

Yeah. I know the OP wants analogue but I find the Yamaha way with Aux sends to be totally intuitive and absolutely perfect for setting monitor mixes. Having done shows on various Yammies I really hate going back to analogue, at least for doing monitors.