Quality before feedback

[Ross9999]

Hi All!,

 

So I've been working at Coutts bank all week and they have this huge open area in the centre of the building with an FBT line array, it's a very reflective area, we brought along some small Turbosound speakers for a bit of added clarity on the ground.

The event consisted of 6 panellists with lapel mics and 2 roaming hand held's for Q & A. All the panellist are on stage at the same time speaking more or less freely.

I's all new Sennheiser gear, and I'm getting good RF with radio paddles. I've got one graphic for the lapels and one for the hand held's, both on separate group inserts, I also had a touch of compression pre graphic eq on the lapels. This is the gear that was specked (I had no input).

So I had to use some very extreme settings on the graphic to get any kind of gain before feedback, leaving everything sounding thin. I would really have liked to have had a gate on every lapel input, because this is essentially what I had to do manually during the show, there was no way I could have all the mics up at the same time. I suggested headset mics, but there was a resounding "NO!" they wanted lapels.

I asked everybody to speak loudly and clearly but it was a panel discussion, and it just didn't happen, they were having a normal conversation with each other.

 

This is the second time I've encountered this type of conference and would love to hear some suggestions for gain and quality before feedback.

 

Kit list:-

 

EW500 G3 x 8

MG24 FX

DBX 231 x 2

Turbosound Nuq10DP

FBT line array - pre installed

and a cheap compressor by a manufacturer that shall not be named...

 

 

[azlan]

can the comp double as a gate? if so then it might be possible to use that with a relatively low threshold to improve the situation a bit

[Bobbsy]

There's no magic bullet on a situation like this.

 

As it's speech only, use the EQ to completely lop off everything below 200Hz and everything above about 5 or 6K. You've probably done this anyhow.

 

Be careful on the positioning of the lapel mics--get them relatively high and central.

 

If you have any control, something non-reflective on the desk or table (i.e. some carpet for example) can help a bit.

 

Then be ready to mix like mad and anticipate who's going to speak next. Don't take the non-speakers right out, just down 10 or 12dB so a missed pickup is just sloppy, not a disaster.

 

Good luck. You'll need it.

 

If you get any input into the spec next time, a small digital mixer gives you the gates you want on each channel--and (on Yamahas at least) a 4 band parametric on each channel which lets you get fairly surgical with your EQ.

[Ynot]

This may sound like a very basic question, but were some or all the panelists seated at all times?

If so, why did they need radio mics? If they didn't, why could you not have used table mounted mics instead, which would possibly have gone good way towards reducing the problem...

 

 

[Matt Riley]

Make sure you don't cut so much eq that you end up just reducing the volume at the graphic, which then needs to be boosted at the faders - this can sometimes sneak up and will certainly contribute to a really bad sound out of the lapels. Also, not all lapels are created equal - so you could consider using a different model of lapel - possibly even cardioid ones. Also depending on the implementation of the rig you could modify which boxes are actually in use to keep the sound out of the mics a bit more. I'd also be inclined if the house rig wasn't up to it to think about lots of distributed lower volume speakers (a la e3s or ps8s) to keep the sound off the walls in place of the house rig.

 

Finally, it may just be me, but I've never found the yamaha MG series channel EQ to be the most pleasant to work with in difficult situations , and would be more keen to use a desk with better channel strip eq instead, as certainly on the mg206usb which I used to use a lot you used to introduce some funny boosts when you cut a certain frequency. Might just be the one I had though! The only other idea I've got is that if it's a more comfy sofas style discussion/debate then you could just have 2 handhelds which they can pass between themselves.

[paulears]

I'm with ynot - panelists at a desk? If this was a BBC radio OB,then they'd almost certainly use a hyper-cardioid on each participant. Radios with probably omnis are pretty hopeless in this kind of environment. You already identified the mic problem,by the suggestion to use headsets - so directivity really is the solution here, plus the manual mic riding from visual activity.

[Bobbsy]

Agreed. I assumed it had to be lav RF mics for a reason--but it they're permanently seated at a desk, then something directional, possibly even on some for of extension tube, would be a far better choice--possibly cheaper to rent too.

[Ross9999]

Yeah, there was no table infront of them, they were just seated, I could have suggested mics on stands but I don't think they would have gone for that!

 

Thanks for all the replys, maybe next time I'll have a vacuum placed around them, that should sort it out, as long as it's see thru, someone really needs to make portable see thru vacuums.

 

The job went okay in the end, there were a few complaints on it being to quite, but no feedback, but I don't really like doing okay jobs, I think bobbsys reply summed up the best solution, I rode the life out of those faders.

 

 

X x X x X

 

 

[Aaron-Hill07]

Just to bring life to a relevant thread (I apologise in advance for taking over this topic a bit!)

 

But, I find myself in this situation alot.. where the client spec's a huge amount of lapel's for a job and you get a kit list similar to that above. For an example of a recent job I was teching I had:

 

7 Shure UR1 Lapels

2 Shure UR2 Handhelds

1 BSS EQ

1 Soundcraft 12 channel desk

 

Now, the 7 lapels were for panelists who double as walkabout speakers introducing Q&A etc. I had 6 E3s delayed down the room and the room wasn't huge (probably 12 meters long by 8m wide).

 

I too always seem to have issues with feedback from lapels and never being able to get much level from them.

 

What I want to know, is; is there certain frequencies that people always know will effect lapels? IE. what are good frequencies to notch down? Is it really a good idea to just take out everything about 6k? I agree with getting rid of all the low end frequencies to get away the rustling of clothes etc.

 

So, what is a good technique of easily removin frequencies and boosting gain on a lapel mic? I know of very few engineers who can do this easily everytime and still get good volume and depth from the sound.

 

Ideas on a postcard,

 

Many thanks

[Alec]

From my experience of lav mics in a church environment, (lively building, imperfect speaker set up) I don't tend to use too much EQ. Mainly as any feedback frequencies will vary as the speaker moves, plus I don't want to suck the life out of the signal with EQ.

 

The main thing is to have reasonable expectations and to ride the fader. Know how far you can push it, and don't be tempted to go above that limit. A common problem I see is where a speaker is trying to call an audience to order and the sound op tries to turn him up to be heard - the resulting feedback normally has "some" effect...

 

I guess I benefit from the fact that I'm dealing with speakers who largely understand the need to project, so I don't have to apply too much gain. But, ultimately, if the speaker is speaking quietly, there's only so much you can give them. Obviously, make sure they have the mic.

 

The real answer is to persuade them to use head-mounted mics. You need to get across that these are what they need to get across their vital wisdom.

[james.sealey]

If your desk has polarity or phase-invert buttons on it they may help.

 

For example, if you have 6 lapels on stage, let's number them 1 to 6 left to right as you look at the stage. Try reversing the polarity on mics 2,4 and 6. You should find this will help as any general background noise *should* get cancelled out by the three mics which are out of phase.

 

Also, as others have said, be careful with your EQing, I find sometimes when I'm struggling it is easier to reset to zero and start again. It's too easy to get bogged down with over EQing, especially with things like lapel mics.

 

James

 

[EDIT: Grammer!]

[mac.calder]

The more mics you have open, the lower the amount of gain you will get before feedback. The easiest way to gain that extra few dB is to ride the faders - and ride them hard. If there are 7 panelists, park every panelist @ -15 or 20dB - then watch like a hawk. The second someone looks like they are going to reply, push them up to 0. By leaving the channel open, even in a worst case scenario of you being a bit slow, they will still be audible - and it will trigger you to push them up.

 

Maybe look at running your delay speakers hotter - it's contrary to how you would generally run delays as you do risk more slap-back, but it may aid you a little bit.

 

Finally speaker and mic placement make huge differences. A well placed lapel will need lower gain on the beltpack - this will lower the amount of ambient noise it picks up. Also have a look at the specs of your speakers - in particular the polar pattern - sometimes the speaker positioning that you think is optimal is not so.

[dbuckley]

For conference panel situations bordering on feedback an automixer can get you out of a hole. I've got an antique Shure AMS8000 with its matching wired mics which for GBF will thrash anything else you might put on the table using a manual mixer, and it cost very little off eBay.

 

E2A - they're very cheap because many people pick them up less cheaply as a mic mixer and then discover that without the right mics they dont work. Other people pick up the mics, not realising they need the AMS mixer. Both groups then flog off their mistakes for a song... There's also a lot of facilities that are upgrading and binning the old AMS.

 

There are many more modern digital solutions that don't require specialist dedicated mics.

[Tall Guy]

Can you not convince the panel to use head mics (countryman e-6 type, one ear, thin as a thin thing)?

 

Hi All!,

 

So I've been working at Coutts bank all week and they have this huge open area in the centre of the building with an FBT line array, it's a very reflective area, we brought along some small Turbosound speakers for a bit of added clarity on the ground.

The event consisted of 6 panellists with lapel mics and 2 roaming hand held's for Q & A. All the panellist are on stage at the same time speaking more or less freely.

I's all new Sennheiser gear, and I'm getting good RF with radio paddles. I've got one graphic for the lapels and one for the hand held's, both on separate group inserts, I also had a touch of compression pre graphic eq on the lapels. This is the gear that was specked (I had no input).

So I had to use some very extreme settings on the graphic to get any kind of gain before feedback, leaving everything sounding thin. I would really have liked to have had a gate on every lapel input, because this is essentially what I had to do manually during the show, there was no way I could have all the mics up at the same time. I suggested headset mics, but there was a resounding "NO!" they wanted lapels.

I asked everybody to speak loudly and clearly but it was a panel discussion, and it just didn't happen, they were having a normal conversation with each other.

 

This is the second time I've encountered this type of conference and would love to hear some suggestions for gain and quality before feedback.

 

Kit list:-

 

EW500 G3 x 8

MG24 FX

DBX 231 x 2

Turbosound Nuq10DP

FBT line array - pre installed

and a cheap compressor by a manufacturer that shall not be named...

 

 

[BlueShift]

Use some heavily directional lapels like Sennheiser MKE40's. They are larger, but for a non-TV event you can normally get away with them (on a suit lapel they are OK). I get more GBF on these than on a countryman E6, and they sound very natural.

 

get a BSS-901 to put on the groups to give you a bit of dynamic EQ control...