415V 63A Single phase?

[WeaveMcQuilt]

When I went to scope out lighting a venue for a cabaret night my friend is hosting, I checked the electrical supply.

 

The 3 separate outputs are BLUE 63A Single-phase outlet, labelled 415V.

 

Now, I'm already slightly worried about this. Obviously I don't want to plug my dimmers into a 415V supply!

 

 

Can anyone shed some light onto why this outlet should be labelled 415V?

I could understand if it was 3-phase, but surely single-phase should be a 240V supply?

 

 

The outlet is definitely 63A single-phase (3-pin) BLUE.

 

Helps!

[Smiffy]

Have you put a meter on the supply?

 

It's generally good practice to meter out the incoming power before you plug it into any of the racks, so might be worth heading down there with your multi-meter...

 

Cheers

 

Smiffy

[Jivemaster]

Well if it's a three phase supply the trunking could legitimately be labelled 415V even though the three outputs were 240v as 415 will exist in the trunking and busbars, but not on the outlets individually.

 

However in the words of TechSupport's sig. trust no-one and don't touch the shiny bits.

 

TEST the situation carefully, with an appropriate meter, with appropriate protection for the meter and for you.

 

The very fact that the label says 415V indicates a degree of antiquity, and you should confirm everything before you start

[pritch]

The 415v labelling requirement dates back some years (15th ed? 14th?), and used to be required when two or more phases appeared within a certain distance of each other. I've seen 13A sockets with the 415v marking on as well!

 

But yes, as others have said, it's a much better option to meter things first just to make sure that you haven't got something weird. I forget where I saw it, but someone mentioned a school hall that had 240v coming out of yellow ceeforms - so better safe than sorry.

[Davethsparky]

The 415v labelling requirement dates back some years (15th ed? 14th?), and used to be required when two or more phases appeared within a certain distance of each other. I've seen 13A sockets with the 415v marking on as well!

 

That requirement is still current, see the second paragraph of regulation 514.10.1 of the 17th edition.

 

Regulation 514.10.1

Every item or enclosure within which a nominal voltage exceeding 230 volts exists and where presence of such a voltage would not normally be expected, shall be so arranged that before access is gained to a live part, a warning of the maximum voltage present is clearly visible.

 

Where terminals or other fixed live parts between which a nominal voltage exceeding 230 volts exists are housed in separate enclosures or items of equipment which, although separated, can be reached simultaneously by a person, a notice shall be secured in a position such that anyone, before gaining access to live parts, is warned of the maximum voltage which exists between those parts.

 

Means of access to all live parts of switchgear and other fixed live parts where different nominal voltages exist shall be marked to indicate the voltages present.

[paulears]

Screwfix are still selling 415V (and 240V ones too)labels

here

http://www.earsmedia.co.uk/415vlabel.jpg

[PaulDF]

The 415v labelling requirement dates back some years (15th ed? 14th?), and used to be required when two or more phases appeared within a certain distance of each other. I've seen 13A sockets with the 415v marking on as well!

 

That requirement is still current, see the second paragraph of regulation 514.10.1 of the 17th edition.

 

This has been an odd regulation open to interpretation, I remember in the 16th edn it referred to Uo which is voltage to earth, 17th edn it refers to nominal voltage and no is about to be wiped out in the 1st ammendment, opting for 230v to earth again!

[Junior8]

The 415v labelling requirement dates back some years (15th ed? 14th?), and used to be required when two or more phases appeared within a certain distance of each other. I've seen 13A sockets with the 415v marking on as well!

 

But yes, as others have said, it's a much better option to meter things first just to make sure that you haven't got something weird. I forget where I saw it, but someone mentioned a school hall that had 240v coming out of yellow ceeforms - so better safe than sorry.

 

However it's phrased I don't like two phases close together in places where labels can easily be tampered with and perhaps removed. I am aware this is likely to be shot down but I have a reason.

 

Some years ago I was involved in a new build school theatre and came in on the Monday to find a double gang light-switch in the control room, one for the room and one for the access stairs, had been labelled up with a 415 plate. On investigation I found that the room lighting circuit was on one phase and the stairs on another. I didn't like this at all because over the years such labels can easily disappear and anyway it was merely laziness on the part of the consulting engineer. So I agitated to have it changed to one phase. (I put laziness but infact everything he did had to be checked and I as an informed amateur was usually right.) So I'd back the advice above. If you're confronted with anything that looks a bit odd especailly in a school install that's been altered over the years test it first.

[adam2]

As others post, each socket is likely to be single phase at 230 volts nominal, though probably nearer 240 volts actual.

The 415 volts labels probably refer to the presence of 400 volts nominal/415 volts actual between the sockets and in the trunking.

 

I would strongly suggest testing with a suitable electricians test meter with fused test leads, just in case it really is 415 volts.

[PaulDF]

Some years ago I was involved in a new build school theatre and came in on the Monday to find a double gang light-switch in the control room, one for the room and one for the access stairs, had been labelled up with a 415 plate. On investigation I found that the room lighting circuit was on one phase and the stairs on another. I didn't like this at all because over the years such labels can easily disappear and anyway it was merely laziness on the part of the consulting engineer. So I agitated to have it changed to one phase. (I put laziness but infact everything he did had to be checked and I as an informed amateur was usually right.)

Why do you think it matters that it was on two phases? It is quite common to have lighting spread around the 3 phases to ballance loading and in some applications to counteract stroboscopic effects.

It might not be brilliant that it was in a twin gang switch but it was labelled as such, if it was on a grid system the label could have been hidden inside. The upcoming 17th edn 1st amd (installations after 31st Dec 2011) wouldn't require a label in this instance for presence of 230v>.

[vinntec]

Steve - I am not sure your original question has been answered in a way you could understand? The BLUE suggests your LX 230/240V 63A supplies are coming from a single phase of a three-phase supply (red, yellow, blue) which is feeding the venue. The 415V warning is there because if you managed to short two of the phases then you would get a 415V shock - almost certainly lethal. As others have pointed out, it need only be there if there is a hazard of shorting two phases (which might be by opening up the ditstribution rather than as an end user). My theatre ran LX on a single phase until fairly recently. As others have said, be VERY careful to be sure what you have if there is noone at the venue who can give you a definite answer. If it is a community building there is nearly always someone - you just have to find out who it is! Hope this helps - Peter

[paulears]

It's very common to see 3 Blue 63A sockets, one on each phase, right next door to each other for plugging in dimmers - schools, colleges and churches find no problems with this, and I think most have 415V stickers close to, because thye sparks get used to slapping them on when providing outlets from local three phase - just good practice. Even when dimmers on different phases are separated. you can still end up with two remote outlets on different phases - indeed, I've never come across an installation where outlets are identified by phase to help you not plug them up so as to enable phase to phase issues.

[Davethsparky]

and I think most have 415V stickers close to, because thye sparks get used to slapping them on when providing outlets from local three phase - just good practice.

 

I think you'll find the vast majority of us fit labels because the regulations require it (see my post above) rather than because we just get used to slapping stickers on things!

And I for one appreciate knowing that I'm likely to encounter 415 volts when working on something that would normally be expected to have 230 volts present.

[vinntec]

Steve - I am not sure your original question has been answered in a way you could understand? The BLUE suggests your LX 230/240V 63A supplies are coming from a single phase of a three-phase supply (red, yellow, blue) which is feeding the venue. The 415V warning is there because if you managed to short two of the phases then you would get a 415V shock - almost certainly lethal. As others have pointed out, it need only be there if there is a hazard of shorting two phases (which might be by opening up the ditstribution rather than as an end user). My theatre ran LX on a single phase until fairly recently. As others have said, be VERY careful to be sure what you have if there is noone at the venue who can give you a definite answer. If it is a community building there is nearly always someone - you just have to find out who it is! Hope this helps - Peter

Hang on a minute. Did you mean there were blue-coloured sockets or that they were labelled "BLUE"? I thought you meant the latter, but realise you might have just meant there were three 63A sockets (which are coloured blue)? Of this is the case, they might be on the same or different phases depending on the venue (although I would have expected some indication of this if the sockets are next to each other). Sorry if I was being a little dozy - now I realise why I wasn't the on the same wavelength as everyone else!

 

Peter

[bigclive]

I never fully got that weird regulation about multiple phases in a single enclosure. If you're going to open up a live switchplate fed from even a single phase then the biggest risk is a shock of 230V to grounded metalwork. You'd have to make a real effort to contact two phases with different hands.

 

Likewise, if a lighting bar is fed from a patch panel that is in turn plugged into three separate dimmers on different phases, then you will inevitably end up with multiple phases on a single bar. But if that bar is properly earthed then the only way you are going to get a 400V shock is if you open up two fixtures on known different phases, remove the lamps and then stick your fingers in the two lampholders at once.

 

Incidentally, I'm glad the IEE (Institute of Electrical Engineers) changed its name to the IET (Institute of Electrical Training) because that pretty much sums up their profit motivated business model these days. Change the regulations slightly and force people to pay to "re-learn" them. Given the shockingly misguided changes the retards have made over the recent years (including the ill-conceived Euro compliance abortion) it would surprise me if they had anyone working on their books that would classify as an Electrical Engineer at all.

 

 

YAAAY! Another weekend rant.