Ynot Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Split from Paulears' schools 'rules' topic, to keep the noise out of there as this isn't directly relative, but this comment made me curious... The biggest assembly hall has a basic fly tower using (now condemmed) hemp manual pullies. The flyfloor is just a gantry at one side around 10 feet up that also gives access to the dimmers, it has a vertical ladder attached to the wall. Students are allowed up there.Curious to hear why the hemp system has been condemned because it actually IS unsafe, or whether someone THINKS it is unsafe...And if it IS unsafe, why is it still in place? Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleah Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Split from Paulears' schools 'rules' topic, to keep the noise out of there as this isn't directly relative, but this comment made me curious... The biggest assembly hall has a basic fly tower using (now condemmed) hemp manual pullies. The flyfloor is just a gantry at one side around 10 feet up that also gives access to the dimmers, it has a vertical ladder attached to the wall. Students are allowed up there.Curious to hear why the hemp system has been condemned because it actually IS unsafe, or whether someone THINKS it is unsafe...And if it IS unsafe, why is it still in place? Just wondering. I too have wondered! I was told a few years back that it had all been condemmed. Maybe the ropes are worn or the pulleys worn/unsafe? Had that been the case, then I wonder why we (well anyone really) are allowed to still go backstage, given that the hemp and planks of wood hanging off it (that the scenery would attach to) are still there, with no physical access restriction or big signs saying "Keep Away"! My feeling is that someone (rightly in a way...) decided that the system should be checked for safety before it could be used again and as the system hadn't been used for over 10years (and not likely to be again!) thought that it wasn't worth having it checked so "condemmed" it. So in short Tony..... "someone THINKS it is unsafe..." is probably the answer! Sorry Tony, must stop calling you short :D :D :D :** laughs out loud **: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Well, the question does beg itself... If the system is indeed faulty, then why hasn't it been dismantled - ie the barrel lowered to the ground (under controlled and safe conditions of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmck Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 If it's never been inspected / tested then it probably is 'unsafe' in the eyes of a school - mainly because no-one knows if it is or isn't so it's best to assume it isn't it seems ;) That said I wouldn't want it hanging above me if it's not been looked at for 10+ years, the battens should be flown in safely and derigged :( although it'd be much nicer, and more useful for the school + crew, to have it looked at and brought back into use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripRigga Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hi all, greetings from Los Angeles. I am not sure of the specifics of why that particular system has been ordered condemned. However, and just for those who might not know, the problem with manilla hemp is that it is made up of multiple short strands of natural fiber. There are no continuous strands running through the entire length of the rope. It is also prone to internal organic deterioration especially if it got wet and was not dried properly, or from other spills....chemicals etc. Bottom line, there are better choices today. A much better substitute for lines in hemp rigging would be 3-strand-twist polyester rope-Multiline II. It is also much better as far as resistance to damage and weakening from becoming wet or damp. chemical spills, paint etc. Even stronger is Stage-Set X. We have all but phased out hemp completely in the movie industry here in Hollywood, as far as rigging. I only stock up on a couple boxes each of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" hemp when I do a show, for really basic tie down stuff.... but even then I don't like it.....certainly not if there is any significant load to be applied to it. I order New Endland Rope "Multiline II". Stronger and much easier on the hands. Consider the breaking strength of Multiline II at over twice that of manilla and Stage-Set X at over three times that of manilla. One of the things we do when prepping for a new show is to cut a whole bunch of 25', 50', 75' and 100' lengths of Multiline and we mark the ends with different colored tape to identify the length. Of course, Production dislikes it when I put in for multiple 600' spools of 3/8" Multiline because it is more expensive than hemp. But they quickly agree when you point out the safety factor....... that they themselves.... or the stars of the show, and other actors, might be sitting or standing underneath systems rigged with manilla rope that has a greater potential to fail-causing the load to drop on them. The crew they don't care about as much, of course. http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif We are expendable.http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif If I see a system rigged with hemp by another department....I will point out all the negatives and suggest the use of something else. For example a chandelier or other practical lighting that was hung by the set decorators....who usually have not the slightest clue as to how to rig even simple stuff. I will always go to their lead person and offer to rig it for them correctly and have my crew replace the lines with Multiline (or sometimes static line) and rig the points properly if necessary....pulleys, safeties, tie off etc etc using only rated rigging equipment. This forum seems cool, glad I found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hey - and welcome to the Blue Room. I am going to fight back on behalf of hemp, though. :) Now don't get me wrong - there ARE things I don't like about hemp to a point, not least of all the fact that after hauling a few lines up and down from the grid your nice clean(ish) blacks are covered with hemp dust! As to the strength and longevity though, if treated properly, and maintained hemp can last for years without the need for a great deal of maintenance. On the other side of the coin, I despise nylon rope. Far easier to get a rope burn from slippage through the hands (and far easier for it TO slip in my opinion).Often only available in garish colours, which isn't what I'd be looking for backstage.Tangled hemp is MUCH easier to unravel as a rule. Hemp also coils better, (especially if you're out in the cold with nylon...)And nylon rope has a tendency to melt under friction from, say, another piece of nylon.. Our small theatre has just three cloth lines, each from 3-line hemp sets. I'd happily pull out on what we have but I would have serious concerns about trying to do the same (especially on fast changeovers) with 3 nylon lines... But after all, horses for courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramdram Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 And of course the Royal Navy used manilla for some considerable time...in all weathers and climates...with, I am told, some notable successes, 1805 being a prime example. The rope per se is not a problem, it is the care and maintenance. There is a theatre in Plymouth, listed, which still boasts hemp. I gather Nelson himself used to work there, of a night, when on shore leave...Lady Hamilton being somewhat demanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Ynot, there's a world of difference between a cheap nylon rope and a proper artificial fibre multi cored hauling line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Ynot, there's a world of difference between a cheap nylon rope and a proper artificial fibre multi cored hauling line.Indeed, I'm sure there is. My point, however, is that there is the inevitable price difference between hemp (which will be perfectly suitable for the vast majority of applications) and a good quality polyester rope.... OK - I maybe was a little too critical of the polyester/nylon options, but at the end of the day, if there isn't a problem with what's in place, I can't see too many theatres replacing hemp for poly rope... Or am I completely off base there?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripRigga Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks Ynot. Yeah I do not mean cheapie nylon rope at all. This is Multiline II. It is extremely comfortable on the hands. http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/Gypsyfingers/ENTERTAIN_MultilineII_LG.gif But I totally understand your preference for hemp on a fly, something you are used to and may have used for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard the chandler Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 It's an interesting debate this one which actually comes up quite often for us given that we do a lot of splicing for hemp sets along with artificial lines for theatre, industrial hauling and marine. Historically it has always been a hemp rope (which nowadays is actually a flax hemp which smells of horses) and so most people are used to the feel and maintainance requirements of it when in use. Flax hemp of the type that we stock and use has a very soft feel to it and as Ynot points out coils very well, people are used to it and it is pretty hard to get rope burn when in use. The other thing that often gets left out of this debate is the issue of fire. Generally speaking an artificial line would go quicker than a Hemp one will if your building is on fire. Its rather hard to actually quantify the differences though and as such its debatable the advantage/disadvantage. Again it really boils down to what people have been used to. As an example we recently had a client come to us to ask about the advantages of switching to an artificial rope due to the issues relating to humidity and temperature in their venue. Consideration is therefore being given to swapping their existing Hemp lines with artificial ones in order to negate that particular issue. Obviously the resistance to chemicals and paints and the like are a big thing with the artificial ropes which people see as a positive. It should also be recognised the key differences between Ynots hand hauled hemp lines and the use of the rope as a control line on a counter weight craddle. Often same ropes. but rather different uses at the end of the day. Ynot I believe would place a higher importance on the smooth feel and lack of burn on the hemp as he'd be likely to be running the hemp through gloved hands to bring in a flybar in a smooth motion rather than hand over hand. On a counter weight craddle of course there is much less actuall constant 'hard contact' with the rope itself provided that the bar has been correctly balanced. It may also depend on the country that you are in (I notice that one of the gentlemen in this thread is in the US) our Natural ropes are British made and our artificial ones are German manufactured. Sometimes the 'culture' of two countries is rather different on such simple things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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