cho_drummer Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Hi,I have a little rig I use for projecting live video feeds with about 4 cameras and a laptop etc. I've been recently asked to sepc. a system to provide multi angle coverage for 2x 6.5m modular LED screens at a large outdoor event in April. I have never used my gear on such large screens and I'm a little worried that a composite video feed will look terrible on such large hi-res screens. So, I'm wondering, has anyone used composite to do something similar? Will it hold up okay (the cameras I'll be using will be Pro/Prosumer types, such as the DVX100, but only likely to be SD, hence the composite feed). If I do need higher quality gear, I'd need to hire in cameras, cable, mixers etc (probably a whole broadcast van) what sort of thing am I looking for? HDMI feed? component video? would wireless feeds be an option? could I send HDMI down cat5? I'm struggling on those kinds of questions really. We need to Run some VT's too on the day so I'm really looking at a 'live broadcast' situation similar to the kind of thing you'd see at a concert. Cheers, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason5d Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 A 6.5m wide led will be no higher resolution than a projectorso no worries there composite will work fine, however..... if the screens are that big the stage will be quite big too, you will needlong cable runs. Composite wont do so will, so you'll need to look at sdi orsending composite video down cat5. You will need experienced cam ops andeven the static cameras need big ccd sensors and at least 20x zooms this is not the kind of project a 1st timer should attempt without help. we can provide all you need including 18mm modular led screens take a look at our website for more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 ...long cable runs. Composite wont do so will, so you'll need to look at sdi orsending composite video down cat5.Really? I've sent broadcast quality composite video over 20km runs before now. All it needs is a bit of proper EQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cho_drummer Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'm not looking to run the event. I'm probably going to work as a cam OP or mixer depending on who else we get on board and what equipment we can get hold of. (I'm not massively confident that my AVE-5 with a couple of DVX100's is really up to the task). I'm hoping they'll see the benefit of hiring in. I've done this kind of thing a lot as an OP and a mixer albeit on a much smaller scale. I'm dir. of photography, 1st cam and editor for the VT's. They only got me on board recently and the screens have been sourced already. I'm hoping to discuss this issue in a meeting we're having on friday, so I needed a bit of background on how these screens are going to interact with the signals we're planning on sending them. I think I can probably source a decent enough camera crew probably of around 5 people but I do think hiring in a good desk and sorting out feeds etc is important. The event is being held outdoor in the town centre of Bolton so It's quite a large area but we will be able to run feeds overhead if needs be and/or well out of the way of the public. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason5d Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Your ave5 will not wash, consider the led that will be usedwill cost a lot to hire so using a crappy domestic vision mixeris not on for so many different reasons. The DVX100 cameras youmention only have a 10x zoom and the ccd is 1/3" - too small. We use a magic dave mixer for our SD work. You also need goodpreview monitors, good talk-back, high quality tripods andideally our camera crane. We can do kit and camera crew at a reasonable price 20km is a long run of coax, that's over 12 miles. I would not like to bethe poor bloke who put that cable in or even worse reel it back up.We would use microwave to send a video signal that far.I chose my words carefully with not so well, wewould not use composite unless it was via cat5 over 50m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cho_drummer Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 That's exactly what I told the people in charge when they asked if I had the equipment to do it, well not exactly since they needed it in layman's terms so it was more like 'Yes, I can do it but it will look horrible'. Everything you've mentioned Jason is what I'm looking into, but, obviously the costs would be really spiraling if it were all going to be HDMI or component feeds. As far as budget goes I'm not sure what the upper limit is for the live screening but I think since we're keeping the cost of the VT production down we'll be able to get something together. It's likely that I can borrow some Libec and Vinten stands, I can definatly get a small spider dolly and flex track a crane would be lovely but that is a budget decision. As far as zoom goes, I'd only need a large zoom on the cams that are some distance from stage and that depends on how many I'm shooting with which again would be a budget decision. Obviously I'd have to bow to superior knowledge on how good the image would be from a 1/3" sensor camera. I don't see why this would be an issue on the short distances involved with the close up cameras and I never really have an issue with them at all but, there may be something I'm missing on that score so if you can enlighten me I'd be greatful. I might end up giving you a call in the next week or so to discuss things further and get a quote, depending on what's happening at this meeting on friday. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 If you're just doing IMAG on a low budget, I've done it successfully using high-end prosumer camcorders, composite feeds and a reasonable mixer such as the MX-50.The results are perfectly acceptable. Obviously you can make it sharper and nicer using more expensive kit. And a crane or dolly track adds more professional looking shots. The main problem with the MX50 is it doesn't have tally lights so you have to call the cameras all the time to make sure everyone knows who's live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 So, I'm wondering, has anyone used composite to do something similar? Will it hold up okay (the cameras I'll be using will be Pro/Prosumer types, such as the DVX100, but only likely to be SD, hence the composite feed). Yes and yes. ..long cable runs. Composite wont do so will, so you'll need to look at sdi orsending composite video down cat5. No you will not. Composite will be perfectly acceptable. I chose my words carefully with not so well, wewould not use composite unless it was via cat5 over 50m. I have no idea why. Regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 20km is a long run of coax, that's over 12 miles.Not as long as the undersea cables from here to the US or, ever further, a hop up to a satellite and back down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason5d Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Sounds like cable runs are less than 50m so no worries there, you can use what you like. If you are going to be on a shoestring you mention get a good camera for the frontof house position we would use a dsr-450, but the problem arises with the dvx-100,the image quality difference will be quite noticeable. Matching images will be quite difficultwithout engineering or a decent vision mixer. so it looks like do it with the kit you have and hope the LED screen tech is not fussy about the feedor do it professionally and pay a fair bit more. If you mix the two, you are opening yourself up to a load of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHYoung Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 2 ways, 1.pro cameramen/cameras on comms , pro mixer, camera looms all the stuff, it will cost a fortune if you try and assemble it yourself, but will be comparatively cheap if you get a firm in that does this. You also have the advantage of explaining what you need results wise and someone else can worry about the nuts and bolts. 2. bunch of mates that can point a camera with ewhatever you have, composite video cables to the mixer, which neednt be fancy, mx50, erirol v8 whatever you understand. Id suggest that you get a decent camera for the main FOH shot, and id consider a monitor for each camera would be rather handy. only know which one you have budget for, but id go all or nothing... Id also not get worried about the size of the screens, its all about proportion, the may be big, but they will be far away, its also unlikely that they will be a particularly hi resolution either. a good shot is a good shot whether its VHS or IMAX, a bad shot similarly. ps If you DIY , hire a decent bnc multicore and run it stage to FOH, that way your camera cable runs are easy and good quality cable will effectively be transparent. forget nonesense about cat5 for runs over 50m or using the hdmi outs, the world ran composite video quite effectively until recently. also get some humbuckers.... if you dont and need one youl regret it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'm not sure about running video multicore to FOH unless you absolutely have to be out there.If you're just feeding screens and not trying to make a recording as well, you would be better keeping your cameras close to the stage and vision mixing from side/behind stage. A FOH shot, except for a tight zoom on the singer etc, is not that useful on a screen, as you are just showing what the audience can already see. Pit cameras and handhelds on the stage are much more interesting.Fixed or speed-dome CCTV cameras can also be a cheap way of getting extra angles - a fixed cam looking over the drummer's shoulder (if you have a drummer...not sure what the event is) is always a nice one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHYoung Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'm not sure about running video multicore to FOH unless you absolutely have to be out there. the camera/s have to be, even if the mixer doesnt so unless its all onstage closeups which is unlikely id say the cable stage to FOH may come in handy. Id be hiding behind a screen sidestage myself, but as the OP was concerned about not having done an event of this scale it may make sense for the him to mix from FOH so he can get the full effect of how it looks. having thought about this, we have all made an assuption about what the event is, how the screens are located, that there even is a FOH position let alone what they actually want on the screens. Its all assumption and im realising that I dont really actually understand the question. it may be a straigtfoward IMAG at a rock concert, or it could be so the people in the next field over can see the morris dancers at the fete only the OP knows, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cho_drummer Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Okay to clarify. The event is a retelling of the easter story. It'll be taking place on a large multi tiered stage with two small side stages by large I mean around 40sq. ft as a roughish guide from what the Director told me. The main play will take place on the main stage with a 'daybreak'/'bbc breakfast' style thing on one of the side stages. The news reports tie together the story and the VT's are there as flashbacks etc. The VT's will have to look great, that won't be a problem they'll be filimed on a 550D, with good lighting and hopefully good acting and some FX but mostly composited effects. So I'm not worried about that bit.The live view kicks in to fill the gaps between VT's and give close ups so people can see what's going on. No really complicated shots required and its in the daytime so daylight will provide the majority of lighting. Screens will be located at the furthest sides of the stage, around 20-30 m apart and the FOH will be probably a similar distance from the stage. These are rough distances as I'm trying to picture the size of the town square in my head and in relation to the drawings the director showed me briefly. Essentially I want it to look good to a passer by. I want joe public to stop for a moment and have a quick look at the screen or the stage and maybe take a minute or two out of their day to experience the show we're putting on. So from my perspective that's going to require a reasonably professional looking setup with decent quality images on the screen. The overal integrity of the image and the slight losses that may occur in quality are not a huge issue. There is a very low liklihood that anyone would notice a slightly degraded video signal in comparison to the scale of the event as a whole. I'd like to be running something from a FOH position and unless someone else can prove themselves capable of running the mixing, I'll most likely be controling that. As a lot of the crew will be volunteers, I need to have as much control over the most critical areas as possible which probably means I'll be mixing the event. Recording it is not important, though it would be nice, I'll probably have my 550D locked off at the FOH position recording the action from there and run the live cameras close to if not on the stage, with one or two locked off for safety. I'm convinced that I can do this with the composite feed at least now. I can get 4 or 5 pro camera guys in working for me without too much effort which means my remaining issues would be comms, cabling hire, mixer hire (I'm thinking a V8 would do the job if a little crude) and possibly the hire of a switcher depending on how the screens are switching. I'm feeling rather positive that with a bit of work and a little more research this could come off very well indeed. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peternewman Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 You also need good preview monitorsIf you're on a budget, the camera preview monitors can be cut back (we've used B&W 5" ones for student TV) as long as you can see what the shot is, but with two decent ones for preview and program. The main problem with the MX50 is it doesn't have tally lights so you have to call the cameras all the time to make sure everyone knows who's live.The MX70 has a tally out, although you have to use a shift button to select sources 4-8. Sounds like cable runs are less than 50m so no worries there, you can use what you like.Where has this mysterious 50m figure come from? Even HD SDI will do 70/80m. As Brian and others have said, composite will go, and still does, much further. How do you think all the broadcasters managed (and still do for the odd circuit), before the advent of SDI etc. Obviously you'll want good cable, my only concern would be the output of the slightly prosumer camera. We've run PD150s/170s, which are similar spec, over 50m with no issues. I'd like to be running something from a FOH position and unless someone else can prove themselves capable of running the mixing, I'll most likely be controling that.Personally, I'd consider whether you'd bet better off closer to the screen, both from a cabling point of view, but also finding somewhere nice and shaded to set up. You don't want sunlight all over your monitors. The main deciding factor really quality wise, is the racking aspect. If you go pro, all your cameras get racked, so you get guaranteed good exposure, but you will need some professionals for that aspect, I tried briefly myself, and you need some experience to do it at all well. At that level your vision mixer can probably also do a few whizzy tricks, and you're probably using proper VT machines, rather than trying to cue off DVDs or whatever. Below that level, the camera exposure needs to be preset or controlled by the ops, everything else (like VTs) is a matter of how much budget and where you choose to spend it. One final thought, when I've done opping, I've found zoom and focus demands very beneficial when on a tripod, these are something you can even get via LANC for certainly PD150 type stuff, and probably the VX1000 too, they might be worth looking at to raise the quality a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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