T.Colwill Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hello Blue Roomers The music department in the school I work at is having problems Sibelius. They use it to record score and midi tracks from their keyboards. They were having lag problems with the click track and couldn't record very well. Sibelius (so I was told) recommended they need better sound cards and a local company recommended the M-Audio Fast Track USB (link) which has seemed to work.They use Yamaha PSR 175 and 170 keyboards linked to the laptops via a Midi USB Link cable (like this) and record onto Sibelius (I think it is Sibelius 6 but I also think its a few years old, so could be an early edition). They then link the M-Audio Fast Track USB to the laptop using another USB cable and lo, there is less lag. To me this seems weird, that adding an additional link that isn't even in the same chain but hanging on the other end has helped to reduce lag. I was under the impression that you should go from your keyboard, to the midi/sound module and then to the comp, but I have little experience of midi so could easily be wrong.Can anyone explain what's going on? The Department head wants to order more of the sound cards so more studants can record and I wanted to check with people more in the knowledge then me to see if this is actually wise. Does anyone know of a better set up? (we spent about £80 per sound card and are looking to spend about the same again) Many thanks Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Well, the first thing I'd look into is what other rubbish is running in background on the laptops. Generally, sound functions on laptops are handled by something bolted onto the motherboard and are therefore subject to interrupts and time outs when something with a higher priority grabs processor cycles. Common culprits are network interfaces and anti-virus software. That could be why an external interface fixes things--by moving the load off the motherboard it reduces the risk of problems caused by other software. Do a quick check by shutting down as many background processes as possible, especially WiFi, Bluetooth and AV. If that does turn out to be the problem, you'll have to take your own view on the safety of having computers in a school environment without AV software though. One other thought though: do you ever record live instruments with a microphone? If so, you'll see a vast improvement in quality by using an internal interface instead of the in-built one, so that could be another reason to consider the investment anyway. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 It's only recently that I stopped using a PII/300 lappie for music! However there was NOTHING else on there. I was the only person with access to it and it NEVER went on the web so no anti malware. SO another vote for checking that your existing systems are dedicated to the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.Colwill Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hi Bob and Jive, thanks for the replys. Unfortunatley the laptops are not dedicated recording laptops, but are all wirelessly connected to the school network and then the internet so that the students can access their own accounts. And there is probably a multitude of stuff going on. (Just had a brief chat with the head of Arts that covers the music department and she's in agreement that a music suite is in order, with dedicated recording computers and recording booth. I think I've just dropped myself in the middle of a bureaucracy battle.. :/ ) So unfortunatley I cant go fiddling with the laptops. [/b]]One other thought though: do you ever record live instruments with a microphone? Again, unfortunatley, thats a part of the unit that is never used. Which is why I dont think getting another 5 of them is a good idea. Its a part of the device that is wasted money. We do record onto a Boss multitrack recorder for the GCSE students, and they also have a Coomber Twin CD recorder as well, but they have no software like Cubase and the like. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timtheenchanteruk Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I would be looking at the USB midi interface, the few I have used have been ok for control, but a bit slow to respond, there should be some settings in sib somwhere to compensate for some of the latency, probably not all.try to borrow a USB midi keyboard, this is what we have, and had no probles with lag thus far, try using different settings in sibelius for the soundcard (IIRC using the windows midi set works better than the sibelius set if using the internal card..how old are the laptops? sibelius isnt that power hungry, after all its just midi, not real audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hang on a bit - there's some confusion here. You have a USB interface for getting midi into the computer, you have a audio card for getting real audio in and out. However, you're using something else to actually generate the sounds. I presume you're using the Sibelius synth to generate the sounds. Kontact was how it was done on earlier Sibelius software, but version 6 uses a software synth from M-audio! If you have version 5 or below, then you should have Kontakt Player 2 on your system. As this is software, then the speed of the processor does have direct link to the latency (the correct term for this problem). I'm guessing, but is the problem you are having that when you press a key, there is a small delay before you hear the result? If so - then assuming the computer has a fast-ish processor and plenty of memory then the latency could be a result of old drivers on the system, so a trip to the Sibelius site to check for updates is a good move. If, however the computers are elderly, then using software synths is going to be a problem. The more instruments, or complexity of them then the latency is just too much. There's a delay on the synthesis if the sound, I suspect the M-audio audio interface may also have a short latency problem too with the system. They're pretty good with fast pcs - but again, trying to use modern sophisticated audio hardware on a maxed out PC is never going to be good. I've got many audio machines here and two are 100% useable with external and internal hardware. Another has really bad latency problems with Roland's VSC software synth, but is 100% fine on much more expensive ones? No idea why - but latency is so bad as to be unusable on VSC. Last comment - you do realise that while Sibelius is a superb scoring system, it really is dreadful at sequencing. It's not what it was designed for. On PCs schools usually go with Cubase and on Macs, Logic. Annoyingly, both these do scoring, but nowhere near as well as Sibelius. For A Level music technology, the examiners report for many years told schools and colleges that for sequencing, Sibelius really wasn't the tool. For getting midi into a computer to use it for composition, Sibelius is great - but if you want to play along with internally generated sounds, converted back into audio externally, then your PC processors might just not be up to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.Colwill Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 You have a USB interface for getting midi into the computer, you have a audio card for getting real audio in and out. However, you're using something else to actually generate the sounds. I presume you're using the Sibelius synth to generate the sounds.To be honest, I don't know where the midi sounds are being generated. I thought since they are stand alone keyboards not synths that it was the keyboard generating the sounds, but I'm probably wrong.. Would a better midi-usb interface have any results? Something like the M-Audio USB Midisport 1x1 or better? Last comment - you do realise that while Sibelius is a superb scoring system, it really is dreadful at sequencing. When you say Sequencing, do you mean recording 1 line of keyboards, then playing back and recording another, then going back and adding some midi drums etc etc? I think I'm going to recomend that they need to move onto cuebase (or somthing similar) and get some dedicated recording laptops. Or the ones we have at least taken of the system and re-booted. Thanks Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hi, Yes this is generally what is meant by sequencing. Paul is correct, I use Sibelius from time to time, I have quite an old version though, it's fantastic for scoring but it's not designed for sequencing. As for what component does what job, then there are a few ways it could be done. You could just use the keyboard as a controller, and use the internal "sounds". Or you could use the keyboards sounds. Depending on the sound card, and the keyboard would depend on the best option. Latency is a funny one. I don't THINK anyone has pointed it out yet which surprises me(apologies if I missed it). I'm a bit behind on all this as I do very little of it now and the efficient ways of doing it have changed considerably. However, you need to remember that there are several processes involved with the recording and playing back process. On the outside, when recording you press a note and it records that note in midi form and puts it up on the screen. On the business side of things however this is split up into a few different sections. To start with, you have the pressing the key part. You press a key, or series of keys to form a melody that you wish to be recorded. This sends a midi signal out of the keyboard and into the computer, via whatever device you may have. Then the computer processes this and says to the software, this is where I want the notes. if you're using the internal sounds then the software THEN has to tell this to sound a note or series of notes, and all the parameters, patch, volume, and various other control parameters, for pedals, effects, etc. Alternatively it has to send a signal back out to the keyboard through the midi device and play the note there. (this bit is sometimes not necessary as you can use the local midi control). You need to work out which one of these is causing the latency problem. They will ALL cause some, but you have a few milliseconds before it starts to cause problems. To test this, try recording something. Try using a click option to keep time. Play and record a simple melody. Does it RECORD to the time you played it with reference to the click, but just PLAY on the machine with latency, or does the RECORDING lag so you are 1/8 beat behind to what you actually played? Determining which one is causing the problem with determine what you need to change. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 A music PC really ought to be separate from everything else, not used for web searching, and certainly not used for debateable software brought in by others. Once you unload all the "other bits" that often come with an installation then functions often speed up. Still a proper composing and sequencing software will be the best option. What do the examiners and moderators want to see from your students? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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