Bothy Cat Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Hi, grateful for any assistance here. We are a 9 peice band and recently purchased a Mercedes LWB Sprinter panel van which was previously used by the Emergency Services and as such has been professionally fitted with 9 seats in total (3 front, 3 rear facing and further 3 front facing at back), with the total passenger area making up about 2/3rds of the van's 6 metre length and the final 1/3rd used for carrying band gear, split by a bulkhead.My question is does anyone have a similar vehicle and do they know if an operators licence is required? We have checked the VOSA site and it appears we have an exemption because it is constructed or adapted for carrying passengers or their effects.Does anyone on the forum have a similar sized vehicle used for band type use and if so can you give any views on this point?cheersMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Assuming your band is a business... In the exemptions section, it states that you do not need a goods vehicle operator's licence if your vehicle is a passenger carrying vehicle. You need to be clear as to its classification, as carrying goods would put it into needing an OL.You should check the driving licence situation, as you are a commercial operation and the van is over 3.5t. You may need a PCV licence.The vehicle should be fitted with a tachograph (unless the emergency services usage precluded this) but you will need a digital one, and this will be needed for all commercial work. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bothy Cat Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Assuming your band is a business... In the exemptions section, it states that you do not need a goods vehicle operator's licence if your vehicle is a passenger carrying vehicle. You need to be clear as to its classification, as carrying goods would put it into needing an OL.You should check the driving licence situation, as you are a commercial operation and the van is over 3.5t. You may need a PCV licence.The vehicle should be fitted with a tachograph (unless the emergency services usage precluded this) but you will need a digital one, and this will be needed for all commercial work. SimonThanks Simon, we certainly were aware of the Driving licence situation regarding a PCV licence and 7 of the 9 of us passed our test prior to the legislation changing about 10 years ago so we are ok to drive.In terms of your first point re the OL, can you expand in terms of classification? The band is a business and we do carry our own equipment in the back.Also note your point re tachograph. We were not aware of this and previous use would certainly have precluded it but it would appear its new use will not. Its only driven on average 2-3 hours a week by any of the 7 of us, but would imagine this will not make any difference.Many thanksMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightsource Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I might be totally wrong here, but 4.6 Ton? I have a Merc Sprinter 311 LWB, and it is a 3.5 (3500Kg Gross)Ton vehicle. (Standard model, not converted for more seats). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianl Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 my reading of it would be...... because it has 9 seats it is not a minibus (which is 9 to 15 passenger seats excluding the driver) it is a large van in the 3.5 to 7 ton gvw category used for business, therefore you will need a tachograph (if it doesnt have one you will have to get a digital one and hence all your drivers will need to apply for a digital tacho card) also all your drivers will need C1 or higher on their licence. you will also need to watch both driving hours and working hours. my guess is you would need an op licence, but if you can find an exemption I would as the op licence is grief for you an exception could be that driving the van is incidental to thye work you are doing , but you would have to look at the distance you travel to work in it also watch out for the london low emmisions zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Not necessarily a minibus but 8 or more passengers brings in the spectre of limiters dependent on exact vehicle category. You are allowed to carry "tools of the trade" without an OL so band gear should be OK. Basically I would strongly recommend speaking to someone running splitter hire and then to VOSA. If you can get a statement from VOSA and then stick to it you will avoid the conflicting interpretations sometimes run into on the road. One inspector might say one thing and the next another, it has happened, and it is handy to have a piece of paper to wave. As for the police, anything can happen, they are as confused as the average motorist. You COULD downrate it to 3.5 tons as others have done with your model which is a standard Merc (Lightsource) and is more or less standard practice. Not that I am suggesting a fiddle but ....http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1081996439 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 You are allowed to carry "tools of the trade" without an OL so band gear should be OK. Where does that exemption stop? If the band carry their own PA is that still OK? At what point do you cease to be a band and become a PA supplier? (I have this picture in my head of the sound crew having to do a quick "turn" as a support act, so they can claim to be a band and avoid needing an OL for their truck) You COULD downrate it to 3.5 tons as others have done with your model which is a standard Merc (Lightsource) and is more or less standard practice. Not that I am suggesting a fiddle but ....http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1081996439 The problem with this approach is that your payload is really limited. In very round figures, at 3.5 tons your sprinter will have somewhere approaching 1.5 tons of payload available. Nine full grown adults (and the seats they are sitting on) will probably be over 100kg each. Add a full tank of fuel (another 50kg?) and the materials used in the bulkhead, and you really don't have much left to play with. Given the amount of space in the van, it would be very easy to grossly overload it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bothy Cat Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Thanks for the post's so far folks - it is a confusing subject and we do propose to get in touch with VOSA but wanted to get some opinions from anybody who has a similar situation first. We previously went around in standard 3.5T panel splitter vans but as a poster said above we were very close/or sometimes just over the 3.5T gross weight, and when this van came up which is rated at 4.6T we felt it was exactly what we were looking for. We have no sound crew generally - a band member takes care of that, and we only carry our own PA and Back Line for our own use at gigs. Agree we want to avoid an OL if at all possible but dont want to be arguing the case with the police each and every time we get stopped either! Views on Tacho interesting and seems a consensus there, if not for the OL - any more views?!CheersMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 VOSA are the only people who can give you an authoritative statement and Kerry's advice is sound. But this area is a minefield in anything other than bog-standard vehicles/uses (even established trade bodies find it a nightmare to get an agreed view on some things) and if you were pulled it is quite possible that the inspector on the ground would have a different view and that is where any possible problem will arise - the police will almost certainly not know the law in sufficient detail to be a problem. However it is quite likely that any issues won't arise unless you are unlucky enough to be involved in an accident. In that case an authoritative VOSA written opinion may well be essential to you. (Two years ago a traveling showman who was the innocent party in a rear-end HGV shunt was staggered to find himself and what was left of his rig being examined by a VOSA inspector called to the scene.) One other point - do look into the drivers hours regulations to see if they might apply to any of you. And I mean look into them and not take on trust many of the old wives tales there are surrounding them. Also if you are heading into London after next Jan visit this page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 A minibus appears to be a vehicle with between 9 and 16 passsenger seats. If your vehicle isn't a minibus, then some of the following* won't apply.If it is seen solely as a passenger carrying vehicle, it would be exempt from a goods O licence. However, it's important to determine this with VOSA - carrying the band's gear when used for commercial purposes isn't "personal effects". As far as I'm aware, there's no getting around the need for a digital tacho. *The pre 97 driving licence gave a D1 entitlement applies only to driving a minibus for a non commercial body or for social purposes, or if the voluntary organisation / school has a section 19 permit. There is also a 3.5t weight limit. It would appear therefore that a 4.6t minibus cannot be used commercially on a pre 97 licence.Post 97 licence holders need to take a vocational D1 and drivers CPC training. You could (if it was considered as operating for hire or reward) need a PCV operators licence...! PS - when you find out the definitive answer, do post it - we would like to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richb Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Worth looking into a little further on the tacho front I think... Don't know if the possibility still exists, but in a similar situation we managed to wangle an exemption through describing ourselves as a 'mobile cultural event'! http://www.ohto.co.uk/tachograph_exemption_form.doc We had to keep a written record of hours, but obviously a lot more 'flexible'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Beware the ownership of the goods carried, Sometimes the rules change with the ownership of the carried goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Oh come on. "on or just over the 3.5tonne limit"? With 9 of you, and fuel, and backline, and a PA, what was the backline and PA made from, wool? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Oh come on. "on or just over the 3.5tonne limit"? With 9 of you, and fuel, and backline, and a PA, what was the backline and PA made from, wool? :) Tether some helium balloons to the top of the van - voila! - more payload! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbob Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 It's best to get professional advice relating to this sort of thing. You may need a PSV operators licence, which is related to the number of seats and purpose of the vehicle rather than the weight of the vehicle. If you are just after clarification, there is a company called OLMC LTD that specialises in operators licence & tachograph stuff for both HGV goods and passenger vehicles. They will be happy to have a chat about your situation and give general advice for free. You can find them here - Operators Licence It really is a mine field - hope they can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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