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Help on pa SYSTEM


tempofunctionband

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Dear All

 

Yet another cry for help on PA system.

 

I have joined a function trio and they already have a PA system that consists of a pair of Bose 802 MkII's and a pair of MB4's and the appropriate bose controller. The 802's are powered from the powered mixing desk (Carlsbro DX8-2P) and the subs from a hill audio LC800.

 

The line up is female vocalist,brass player (trumpet,trombone,flugel horn) and myself on keyboards. Whilst in smaller venues up to about 100 the PA sounds ok we are beginning to pick up a lot more work in venues that hold 150-250. The system seems to struggle and they have blown a couple of drivers before in the tops and the last gig we did there was clipping evident.

 

From reading other posts I believe our amps could be under powered running at 8 ohms, the bose may not have such good dispersion as other speakers on the market and I am left wondering if we should be looking at investing in a newer and perhaps more efficient system. My local DV247 suggested a pair of Mackie 450mk II with an active sub woofer for around £1300.

 

If anyone can give me their thoughts and/or recommendations I would welcome them. If we do replace I would envisage a budget around £1200.00. Our back up PA is a Behringer PMH3000 with a pair of 802's and a controller.

 

Thanks

 

Darren

 

Forgot the vital bit:

 

The desk is 300w per side (presumably at 4ohms) and the Hill amp is 400w per side. Bose 802 rated at 240w continuous and MB4's 200w I believe.

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If im correct in guessing that the type of music will be sort of jazz then the Mackie srm450's will not suit the type of music very well, the good point to the mackies are that they are very loud, but with the loudness they are very harsh speaker. Try looking at HK Audio Lucas Impact for around £2,000 you are getting much better sound quality, amps and controllers are built into the sub, simple XLR left and right in.
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My 2p, have a look at the LD systems active stinger range. Very nice sounding cabs, and with the type of music you suggest, you may be able to get away without a sub if you go for the 15" tops (but be warned these are fairly chunky beasts). CPC sell them at a pretty good price if memory serves.
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Thanks for your input, we do a range of music from background to modern covers using sequenced keyboard backing tracks. I would rather have a system that is not harsh just for the sake of a bit of extra volume. I have heard lot's of positive comments about HK gear.

If im correct in guessing that the type of music will be sort of jazz then the Mackie srm450's will not suit the type of music very well, the good point to the mackies are that they are very loud, but with the loudness they are very harsh speaker. Try looking at HK Audio Lucas Impact for around £2,000 you are getting much better sound quality, amps and controllers are built into the sub, simple XLR left and right in.

 

 

 

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Thanks Doug, general opinion seems that going down the active route that DB, Lucas or LD systems may suit. As you say it is probably well worth trying a system through hire first.

To be honest if its doing its job for the smaller gigs, I would hire in for the bigger ones and put the hire charge as a seperate item on your invoice. This should give you the opportunity to try several different systems in anger to find the one that suits.

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Mackie SRM 450's would be over kill and wouldnt sound great based on what you do but the Mackie SRM 350 is a much nicer sounding box and with a Mackie SWA1501 sub ( you would only need one sub ) that might just cover 200+ :)

This setup would also look alot nicer as its smaller and very compact.

 

The new JBL Eon kit is nice as well. Stick to the 515 or 518 thou :)

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It's all opinions though (naturally mine is right ;) )

 

I can usually tell it's EONs before I get into the room - they have their own sound & I don't like it! Mackies are, IMHO better sounding (we've got plenty of 450, 350 & 1501 at work - all from before I started working there) but I really think you can get better for the money.

 

You need to consider cost, size, weight, mounting, flying points, handles, blue LEDs, weather the name on the box is important & other things I can't think of right now. Some of these may be important to you - but you need to listen - never buy a speaker without listening to it first.

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I have heard very good things about the LD Stinger range, ply boxes, solid construction, and reasonable drivers, and sound pretty good too! They are also quite good homes for upgraded drivers in the future if you wish.. I'd stick with the 12" personally, as I feel the size and vocal ability is better than a 15". There is no reason you couldn't stick with your current subs for now if they do the job...

With regards to mackie speakers, I'll be honest, if I know that they are going to be there, then I'll tend to leave my ears at the door with my coat! More often than not they are being overdriven, and even when they aren't they sound particularly harsh to me.

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I must admit that Mackie's seem to be out of the equation for our type of music. At the moment I am leaning towards DB's or RCF but I will try and give the LD's a listen also.

I have heard very good things about the LD Stinger range, ply boxes, solid construction, and reasonable drivers, and sound pretty good too! They are also quite good homes for upgraded drivers in the future if you wish.. I'd stick with the 12" personally, as I feel the size and vocal ability is better than a 15". There is no reason you couldn't stick with your current subs for now if they do the job...

With regards to mackie speakers, I'll be honest, if I know that they are going to be there, then I'll tend to leave my ears at the door with my coat! More often than not they are being overdriven, and even when they aren't they sound particularly harsh to me.

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I must admit that Mackie's seem to be out of the equation for our type of music. At the moment I am leaning towards DB's or RCF but I will try and give the LD's a listen also.

I have heard very good things about the LD Stinger range, ply boxes, solid construction, and reasonable drivers, and sound pretty good too! They are also quite good homes for upgraded drivers in the future if you wish.. I'd stick with the 12" personally, as I feel the size and vocal ability is better than a 15". There is no reason you couldn't stick with your current subs for now if they do the job...

With regards to mackie speakers, I'll be honest, if I know that they are going to be there, then I'll tend to leave my ears at the door with my coat! More often than not they are being overdriven, and even when they aren't they sound particularly harsh to me.

 

I just purchased a 8" LD Stinger Active cabinet for use as a DJ monitor. I have to admit it is very good! (My other 8" speakers are Nexo PS8s, so quite a good speaker to compare to!)

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Last time I bought PA the general rule of thumb was use speakers higher rated that your amp and you won't blow them, don't use anything less than a 15" speaker with a keyboard. With all the latest thinking I am wondering if I with a coucan get away with a pair of 15" or 12" tops and one sub. I can always add another sub if required.

It's all opinions though (naturally mine is right ;) )

 

I can usually tell it's EONs before I get into the room - they have their own sound & I don't like it! Mackies are, IMHO better sounding (we've got plenty of 450, 350 & 1501 at work - all from before I started working there) but I really think you can get better for the money.

 

You need to consider cost, size, weight, mounting, flying points, handles, blue LEDs, weather the name on the box is important & other things I can't think of right now. Some of these may be important to you - but you need to listen - never buy a speaker without listening to it first.

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Last time I bought PA the general rule of thumb was use speakers higher rated that your amp and you won't blow them,

 

Looks like you've heard some music shop folklore. To a large extent, the opposite is true, subject to one or two caveats.

Run a speaker with too small an amp and drive it hard (because you've been told it won't blow it) and the clipped amplifier signal will damage the loudspeaker.

Run a speaker with an amp that is 1.5 to 2 times the speaker's AES rating, whilst ensuring it never clips will give you headroom and a clean signal.

Of course, if you never clip the too small amp the speaker will be fine, but you may never get the best out of the speaker. This does assume that the speaker you are using has a modicum of headroom with respect to thermal handling and Xmax (excursion). A cheap driver may not, and may let go before its rated power handling.

 

...don't use anything less than a 15" speaker with a keyboard.

Think of a system with sub and 10" + horn or 8" + horn tops as a three way loudspeaker. The smaller tops give you the benefits of greater portability, (usually) better pattern control, increased clarity in the speech range and a more flexible system when you do not need bass frequencies (speech only reinforcement). Furthermore, having subs on the floor means you get some "free" extra bass (+3dB) due to the speaker being in a boundary condition. Lastly, having a dedicated sub usually means much better low frequency reproduction than is achieved in most 15" + horn boxes.

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