Roland M400 FOH output setup

[samchurchill]

Hi everyone,

 

I wondered if anyone is able to give me a bit of advice. We've recently moved from a Yamaha LS9-32 to a Roland M400 and I'm trying to work out the optimum way to setup the FOH outputs for our setup.

 

The setup is as follows:

• 2 x high/mid speakers at the front
• 1 x sub at the front
• 2 x high/mid speakers half way back
• 1 x sub half way back

(I know this speaker setup might seem a bit strange but unfortunately it's the only way to do it in the rather odd room.)

 

I want to be able to delay the send that goes to the rear speakers so that they're in sync. I also want to do EQ so that the high/mids and subs get the right frequency range.

 

On the Yamaha LS9 this was easy as we used the matrix outputs and each one of them could have its own EQ and delay setup without using the main FX channels.

 

I have managed to get the Roland to do the delay by feeding Main -> 2 x Aux with inserted delay effects -> matrixes for the rear speakers and sub. However, I then went to find the EQ on the matrix channels and they weren't there!

 

The only way I can think of is using the Channel Strip FX, but this would be needed for each of the 6 speaker cabs, therefore using 3 of our 4 internal FX slots.

 

Is there another way I should be doing this?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Sam

[peza2010]

How About using a crossover rack unit that allows you to dial in a delay time for the chosen outputs?

[samchurchill]

That would be nice but unfortunately there is no budget to buy one of those at the moment. The idea behind going for a digital desk is that it copes with all of that.

 

The situation is further complicated by the fact that the front pair of high/hid speakers and the subs (front & rear) are run from amps at the front, whilst the rear pair are active and positioned behind the FOH position, therefore it makes a lot more sense to just take direct outputs from the desk.

 

Thanks

[revbobuk]

Use the 'Dual Graphic' in the FX slots for the Matrix outputs, which has a delay tab as well. I don't think there is a delay available anywhere except as an FX, so you may as well combine it with the EQ you are using anyway. Perhaps Roland ought to add a 'delay' tab to the graphic/parametric in the GEQ slot. Or add a delay setting to each Matrix out by default.

[samchurchill]

Great, thanks revbouk, that's the way I was thinking I'd have to go. Pity that only leaves me 1 internal FX slot free once I've done it for the 6 speaker sends. Oh well.

 

As you say, the independent EQ & delay on each matrix output on the LS9 was a great feature - hint hint Roland!

 

Thanks again,

 

Sam

[revbobuk]

I think you are counting wrong. I presume you don't want delay on the front pair, so you could use the main output 4-band eq or one of the four graphics for that, if you have one spare. Then you could use 2 of the dual graphics on FX1 & FX2 for the other 4 outputs - they are completely separate units, with separate patching, EQ settings and delays. Then you would have 3 graphics and 2 FX slots left - or more if the main out 4-band eq is adequate. The dual eq is a handy thing, as it effectively doubles the number of slots if you are using them just for eq and delay.

[samchurchill]

Of course, I'd missed the fact I could use the straight GEQ for the ones that don't need delay, thanks. Although 4-band EQ would be sufficient, I don't think I can use it on the Main as that's what I'm using to feed the matrix outs (unless the send to the matrix outs can be pre-EQ post-fade at the same time... goes to mixer to find out :-)

 

 

Have you used the dual channel strip FX at all? This seems to combine 4-band EQ, delay, compression, gate etc into one handy FX slot - I guess this is designed for outputs as most of the stuff is on the input channels anyway.

[MarkPAman]

Am I right in thinking that you want to use two (or more) graphics to act as a crossover?

 

This really isn't going to work too well. Neither the M400 or LS9 is designed to give anything other than full range outputs. (The Mackie TT24 has/had the Lake processor card as an optional extra - though it was not cheap)

 

Use something that is designed to to this (and more), like a DXC2496 or a driverack, which cost a fraction of what your desk does!

[dwright2104]

You can use the ls9 as a crossover very easily, dont use a graphic for it but use the low pass roll off and high pass roll off in the 4 band parametric included in every output channel.

[dbuckley]

Does the M400 not have the same capabilities as the M300 in that department? On each of the M300 outs (matrix, main, and aux) there is limiting, delay, and GEQ, and the GEQ can have the uppermost and lowermost bands configured as LPF and HPF so opening the possibility of a "sort of" crossover.

 

I say "sort of" because the types of filters used for crossovers are distinctly different from those used in GEQs and PEQs, and no matter how you adjust it there is going to be considerable overlap between the subs and the tops, unless you wind the frequences apart sufficiently that there is a gap. Channel EQs, parametrics, and graphics make shit crossovers; they just dont have enough slope. For fifty quid each you can get Behringer CX2310s, which will do a much better job, and then you can just do the delays in the desk.

[revbobuk]

David - unfortunately, no. The M300, although it looks like a cut-down version of the series, is actually an upgrade in a few areas, and this is one of them. The outputs on the M400 don't have anything much to speak of in the way of processing.

[kranaudio]

Hi All,

 

We have recently made the same transition from the LS9-32 to the M-400. For now, I have used the existing analog snake to take my Main L and R signals to the stage where they go through a crossover and power amp.

 

I have noticed just from running iTunes through the M-400 that the output seems a lot louder than the LS9 and the Main stereo LR meters are hardly showing any output meter.

 

Is it something on the board I need to adjust, or is an adjustment needed to the power amps?

 

I would appreciate any insight.

 

Thanks.

[Bobbsy]

Well, I've never used a Roland mixer so I won't speculate on that side of things, but...

 

The LS9 has attenuation and trim adjustments in a post-meter position on all the Omni etc. outputs. I'd guess that in the deep, distant past those were adjusted on the mixer you replaced.

 

If, as somebody stated, the Roland doesn't have this very useful facility, you'll have to find some other way of achieving this...though I'd have hoped somebody checked this sort of thing out before "upgrading".

 

(OT: By the way, a big stampede "HI!" to Calgary. Many, many years ago I lived there (and some smaller towns in that area) and actually did my uni degree at the university there. That was before I became a travel (and warm weather) addict!)

 

Bob

[MarkPAman]

As has already been said, there’s no trim on the final outputs. However I don’t find my M380 outputs to be particularly hot, so I think Bobbsy’s guess about the LS9 being turned down in the past may be correct. The solution may be as simple as turning down the input gain on the crossover if there is one.

 

That said, check that you’re metering the final output level, as there are several metering options - post fade is pre insert for instance. If you’ve not been metering the output there’s a couple of things to check:

 

Is there anything (possibly a graphic eq) inserted over L+R that could be adding gain?

 

Another (though unlikely) possibility is that L+R are in a DCA group that’s turned up a long way.

 

One more thought, and no insult intended, but as you seem to have only just started with this desk; the default outputs do not include Main L+R outs from the console. 1 - 6 are aux outputs and 7 & 8 are Monitor outputs, which have their own level control - could this be turned up a long way?

[samchurchill]

Hi everyone. Just in case anyone else is following this thread with the same question as me, I had a helpful conversation with someone at Roland last week and he suggested using the PEQ in the channel strip FX to put in a HPF/LPF. I am pleased to say that I tried it for the first time today and it worked great. The good thing is that the channel strip also has the delay that I needed. For the front speakers, where I didn't need the delay, I changed from 31-band GEQ to 8-band PEQ so as not to use up all my FX slots.

 

Sam