SBLD Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 As part of a university research project I have been posed the question: "To what extent do different performance genres present different creative and managerial challenges for the LightingProgrammer?" I am looking to gather information from Programmers who work in all genres of live performance, particularly Rock and Roll or Club and Rave lighting.If you feel that you could spare 5 minutes to answer the questions in my Lighting Programmer Questionnaire I would greatly appreciate it. Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 ... This survey does not really read as a survey but more as an "Answer my homework for me" page... A survey should not require essay length answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathanhill Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I refer the honourable gentleman to the comment regarding another 'survey' made a short time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley R Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I would agree with Mac You would probably end up just copy and pasting the answers across, and then you might give credit to the original author. Why not post how you would answer each question you have got in the "survey" and then maybe we can deliberate on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Looks like an essay title to me I have to say. Write it yourself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Very definitely an essay title by the looks of it. Here's a hint though. It's not so much the Genre that dictates how you programme something, but rather how it is to be played back, and by whom. Cheers Smiffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genus Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 To answer any one of those questions properly would take me more than 5 minutes. I think that it's important that an LD and their programmer get on well. Once a programmer gets to know the style of a designer, they can anticipate requirements and deal with them quickly and efficiently without slowing down the process. This is from my experience in programming for dance shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARTNKCMO Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I have worked in live concert production as a lighting and staging designer here in the states for over 22 years working with national and regional artists. For me to to design a show I like to listen to an artists music for hours upon end to come up ideas for my designs. Also advancing the tour is most important. When I say advance I mean get the skinny on the venues that you will be working in, such as rigging points, room size, ceiling heights, local electrical codes and most importantly are you going to be working in a venue that requires the use of union stage hands. Having a competent touring crew is also very important. I personally like to choose people I have worked with over the years to be on my crews, this way I know their work ethic and if I can handle being on a tour bus for long hours at a time with them without commiting a hienous act of murder while they sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The trouble is that programmer is becoming a dedicated job/role. I'm not sure how useful this is because to be really good, a programmer needs to really know the desk. In a theatre situation the old way would be the LD uses the house experienced op, but they often have communication difficulties - like "make it bigger" not meaning physical size but bigger impact wise. Now LDs seem to insist on a programmer, and they're usually excellent people - but they're not associate or assistant LDs - they're just some new kind of person. Time pressure means more complex plotting sessions because of the possibilities the kit has, so the need for the programmer is technology led, not design led? It's also a role that constantly needs updating - what use is a Strand programmer now? A few years ago somebody who could be quick on a 500 series was a very handy person, but now they need to be just as good on another - and as desks and operating systems keep expanding almost monthly, how can anyone be good on multiple systems? The survey questions are hard to answer for certain areas if you're not really into state of the art, No.1 circuit stuff. Should we even train programmers, or should that be a function of a manufacturer? A Degree in desk programming? Wasn't that just a small bit of another one a few years ago? Do programmers turn into designers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARTNKCMO Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I have used programmers in the past and they can be a great asset if the designer gets sick on the road and needs someone to fill in for the gig but it is also nice to know the in's and outs's of a console. One of the production companies I worked for had every type of console you could imagine in their rental stock so this made it nice to sit in the shop and get some desk time so I would not have to rely on a programmer. Another cool thing was that when the company purchased a new console such as the HOG 3 or a Avolites desk the console maker would usually send out a tech to do an in service with the company employees. Also most major desk manufacturers have a pc based software of their desks that you can practice on, save the show and then load it right into the desk to check your work Bart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 In theatre I think the programmer is pretty valuable, I work as both a Lighting Designer and a Lighting Programmer, but even when lighting a simple show I prefer to have a programmer if possible. This allows me to pay attention to the stage and what is happening there, without the distraction of monitors and buttons to press. While I often know the desk better than my programmer does I still find having them there very useful - especially because I can watch cues being run without the distraction of needing to wear cans and press the button myself. An expert programmer is obviously preferred as it means I can give instructions in a less detailed way - ie I can ask the programmer to move a channel to a specific part in a specific time, get the programmer to tidy the show up, or - if using moving lights - ask the programmer to make some specific palletes, or a specific effect instead of me having to dictate the activity step by step. Obviously in music I understand that the programmer/LD relationship is a bit different to that of theatre (the LD more asking for what they want the product to do rather than going through the steps to get there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 if the designer gets sick on the road and needs someone to fill in for the gigI'm getting blurred between the roles of associate, assistant, programmer and operator now. On the road the LD will often be the operator, so the programmer has gone, haven't they. Personally, I would have thought that the problem with the programmer 'role' is that it's not in the creative side, more production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_the_LD Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 if the designer gets sick on the road and needs someone to fill in for the gigI'm getting blurred between the roles of associate, assistant, programmer and operator now. On the road the LD will often be the operator, so the programmer has gone, haven't they. Personally, I would have thought that the problem with the programmer 'role' is that it's not in the creative side, more production?We had this discussion the other day in one of our lectures; the whole programmer/operator/LD/associate LD. I think we came to the conclusion that if a show tours it's quite often the programmer runs it. As they can update any palettes/positions/anything else on a venue by venue basis. Of course it comes down to budget too. I'll dig up my notes tomorrow and come back here to confirm that I'm not chatting rubbish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 As Paul says I think there is a blur here between the programmer in music and in theatre. In theatre it is true that the programmer often re lights, this is partly because it saves an extra person being required during the production period, and so cheaper, but also because programming a show is a good way to get into the ld's mind - you see why the cues are doing what they're doing and how the Ld works so when adjusting the show on the road you can keep to the original style more easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bleasdale Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 how can anyone be good on multiple systems? Yes. Most LDs I come across can do basic commands on mutiple systems, but not to the level of the Programmer. The Programmer now has a dedicated job because knowing multiple systems is difficult, and requires this specialist role. Should we even train programmers, or should that be a function of a manufacturer? Not directly. Manufacturers run console classes, that is NOT teaching them how to Program. The class is teaching them the functions of the desk. I was told very early on by one of the worlds best Live Events Programmers that learning a desk does not make you a Programmer. Being a Programmer is knowing the desk under stress at 2am when the LD is shouting commands at you left, right and centre. You can know a desk and be a rubbish Programmer, it requires skill, timing, handling of stress and organisation. A good sense of musical beat and some artistic taste usually goes down well too. A Degree in desk programming? Wasn't that just a small bit of another one a few years ago? Do programmers turn into designers? A degree in desk Programming, probably not. You said yourself, desk hardware and software change to rapidly. This means that only short term things (like training courses and up datable manuals) can be offered realistically. As for the second part... Yes, I would say they do. I know a number of TV LDs who either still program their own shows, or started Programming big shows and gradually started taking on shows as an LD and before they knew it, the LD'd more than they Programmed. Believe it or not, people get tired of being the Programmer and want to explore their artistic side more, because they have been "No 2" they have the ability and contacts to move on. Another cool thing was that when the company purchased a new console such as the HOG 3 or a Avolites desk the console maker would usually send out a tech to do an in service with the company employees. Yeah this happens a lot. Not all manufacturers do it out of good will. When I used to sell desks for Compulite, I would throw in a few training days as part of the price because Compulite don't have any official training like other manufacturers. I don't work for Compulite or their distributor any more, but I retained the Vector Trainer status and I get requests from the UK, USA, Canada, Russia, Romania, Latvia and even as far as New Zealand. So as a Freelancer, they did me a favour! Also most major desk manufacturers have a pc based software of their desks that you can practice on, save the show and then load it right into the desk to check your work This actually comes in as an extremely useful tool to the Programmer. If he is flying half way across the world last minute to take over a show he didn't program or he programmed a while ago, they can email the showfile to him and he can sit on the plane making changes or catching up on how it all works. He can then load his modified file into the desk on arrival, this will have saved valuable production time. The software can usually be used as some sort of "Tracking backup" system so that if the show cannot afford a second console, the free software can be used instead! An expert programmer is obviously preferred as it means I can give instructions in a less detailed way - ie I can ask the programmer to move a channel to a specific part in a specific time, get the programmer to tidy the show up, or - if using moving lights - ask the programmer to make some specific palletes, or a specific effect instead of me having to dictate the activity step by step. Programmers often do things in their own little way, but they also understand that if they are Programming for an LD to run the show, they take care within the showfile to name and number things to how YOU like not how the Programmer likes. There is nothing worse than having someone Program a show then you take over and they have named things with strange acronyms that only they understand. I'm getting blurred between the roles of associate, assistant, programmer and operator now. On the road the LD will often be the operator, so the programmer has gone, haven't they. Personally, I would have thought that the problem with the programmer 'role' is that it's not in the creative side, more production? The Programmer is a perfect role in my eyes. An awful lot of the time, the Programmer can fill any role in the lighting crew, usually because he has been there before. But anyone else in the lighting crew cannot fill the programmers role to the same standard. The LD can probably patch lights and make them move and change colour, but the Programmer will be a million times more efficient and knowledgeable of the desk and interlinking systems. Here is my understanding of the following... Associate - an LD who programmed less than 50% of the show. He could have covered for the main LD due to sickness or been here before the LD arrived. This guy is not part of the immediate crew, bit did designing work on the show. Assistant - usually the person who does all the LDs small tasks for them (running to find out where kits has got to, finding specific people, even making the coffee). The assistant probably knows the plot inside out and keeps on top of the updating of paperwork etc. This will allow the LD to sit with the programmer and work solidly without hassle. Useful on larger shows. Programmer - The Programmer usually designs the lighting control systems. If there are Media Servers and Ethernet involved, he/she is usually the one sorting out the network etc. The programmer should know almost everything about the desk they are programming. The odds are they use the desk day in day out, and know it like the back of their hand. Operator - This is the person who usually (on larger shows) takes it on tour. The LD and Programmer leave after the first few shows, and the operator tours. In theatre tours recently I see LX 1 doing the operating. They will usually know basic commands like patching, updating palettes and cues, but they will not know the desk to anywhere close like the Programmer does. Sometimes the operator wont do anything apart from press the GO Button. This usually saves on cash too, it will also allow the LD to go and design another show and keep multiple shows on the road with little intervention. As a Programmer and Trainer in my own right, this is just stuff I have picked up from other Programmers or from Personal Experience. I hope this helps. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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