PAR 64 vs PAR 56 for a small band

[flukather]

Hi!

 

I'm going to buy 8 cans, and put 4 on either side of the band, just behind the FOH system, directed at the band, so the light's coming from the sides.

 

The cans will be RGB LED ones, and will be the only lightning that we use. Would you guys recommend PAR 64 or PAR 56 for this scenario? I'm a bit worried that PAR 64 will be either too hot, or too bright for the band members standing right next to them.

 

Cheers!

Niklas

[xandersears]

The cans will be RGB LED ones, and will be the only lightning that we use. Would you guys recommend PAR 64 or PAR 56 for this scenario? I'm a bit worried that PAR 64 will be either too hot, or too bright for the band members standing right next to them.

It's pretty unlikely any LED product will be too hot for the band as they are highly efficient at producing light. That's not to say they're good at it though... This debate has been covered before on the Blue Room if you have a search, but generally LED cans, especially the cheaper ones, don't have the same oomph or capability to produce saturated colours as incandescents, and the cheaper ones are generally inconsistent and unreliable.

[smalljoshua]

If they're going to be LED, heat will be minimal (practically nothing) from both types of units.

 

Also, for brightness, they may well be equal. E.G. the Thomann LED Par56 and Par64 have the same number of LEDs and are equally as bright as one another.

 

generally LED cans, especially the cheaper ones, don't have the same oomph or capability to produce saturated colours as incandescents, and the cheaper ones are generally inconsistent and unreliable.

I'm going to have to comment on this, I've got a number of the LED Par56 I recommended above, they can produce a higher intensity saturated blue, green and red than the equiv Gel in a normal Par56. In white, they are just about comparable to a Par56 (IMO) but are a bit blu-ish for my liking in full white.

 

Reliability wise, they've faired very well considering the amount of use they get.

 

Josh

[flukather]

Thanks for your answers! I have a couple or more questions:

 

Which type of diod should I get? I've been recommended 1w diods.

 

What beam angle is needed for my scenario? I've heard 10-11 degrees is way too little.

 

Cheers!

[smalljoshua]

Calculating the beam angle you need is simple Trig.

 

You need to know the distance (x) from performers that the lights will be and you need to know the diameter (d) of the area you want to light. With this you can work out the beam angle using: tan^-1(^0.5d/_x) There are also a couple of calculators available on the web too. This is just one of them.

 

HTH

 

Josh

[greenalien]

Might be worth your while to hire a set to start with, to see if they meet your expectations. There are now quite a number of different LED Parcans on the market - some use multiple 5mm diodes, some use multiple 10mm diodes, some use 1W diodes, some use 3W diodes, and some even have a zoom function. Power varies from around 20W at the bottom end to around 100W at the top end, quite a difference. Furthermore, as has already been mentioned, the 'white' effect from RGB LED lights isn't very good, so you may want to consider adding a couple of profile spots to the rig, almost essential if you want to highlight a performer at the front of the stage. If you perform on a number of different-sized stages, a setup that works fine on a small stage may be no use on a large stage, and vice-versa, so it's important to consider beam angle and coverage for each light you eventually select.

[Ashley R]

Personally me, for small stages I find that 1w and 3w units are way to bright and dazzling. I prefer to use about 3x as many LED cans with 10mm Diodes,

 

Mainly for the fact that I can distribute the light more evenly, even though im still stuck with a 15deg beam angle, with a bit of frost and 30 fixtures I can handle a stage 10m wide and 18m deep, with white light being supplied by Selecon acclaims, CCT minutes, and PAR 56's with 300w MFL lamps.

 

Definitely try hiring a few different options to see what works best for you. And I find by chucking a bit of frost gel in the front it evens the light out and if you have to look at them its bearable

[sleah]

And I find by chucking a bit of frost gel in the front it evens the light out and if you have to look at them its bearable

 

Which frost do you use for best effect? I tried 50% (I think it was!) and it cut out too much light. Great for eye-candy ;)

[Don Allen]

The budget LED "Pars" need some form of dispersion to blend the coloured light output of the leds into a smoother more even light. The usual way to do this is to use frost filters. You need to do some research to determine which filter will work best or maybe you will decide not to use one. If the LED "Par" is used as a colour wash, you may not consider the multiple colour shadows an undesirable side effect.

 

One brand of frost filter is Lee Frost Filters, I tried to find a better table so will have to type this out as you need to be aware of how much of the light output of your LED "Par" is absorbed by the frost filter. The amount of light that pases through the filter is given as Y or the percentage % of transmission.

129 Heavy Frost - Y=>25% - A strong diffusion that elliminates nearly all shadows. (Thats 75% of your light absorbed by the frost filter)

220 White Frost - Y=>39% - Used for soft light effects.

253 Hampshire Frost - Y=>85% - A light frost effect.

254 New Hampshire Frost - Y=>85% - Used to soften the edges of spotlight beams.

255 Hollywood Frost - Y=>83% - A light frost effect that softens edges.

256 Half Hampshire Frost - Y=>86% - Extra light frost effect.

257 Quarter Hampshire Frost - Y=>85% - Extra Light Frost effect.

258 Eighth Hampshire Frost - Y=>85% - Extra light frost effect.

 

The better option is to get a Tri LED that has the RGB dies in one unit so they are behind the one lens. Or look at a more efficient frost material such as a dichroic or the ADJ frost filter, but I couls not see the specs for that.

 

As stated by other posters, the advantages of LED's is to reduce the heat which is better working conditions for the band and reduces power consumption so it may be possible to run all of the bands lighting fron a single power point.

 

I used to use Par64's with colour scrollers for a lot of my lighting, but have started using ETAN Led Lighting a 48*5W RGBA Led "Par" which draws a maximum of 250 watts but when you compare the colour output of this unit to a PAR64 with a coloured gel in front, the LED "Par" is proving to be a better unit.

 

Beware of these points when choosing your LED lights:

Weight - mine weigh 8 Kg each so you need a heavy duty lighting stand.

Build quality - I had to repair two of my units so I rebuilt them as I am a tech, most users can't. (ETAN sent me spare LEDS)

Fan noise - I use them for musicals and bands so fans get lost in music, not suitable for a quiet stage.

Beam angle - I chose 30 degrees to suit me. the wider the beam width the lower the light level as it has to cover a wider area.

Reproduceable colours - I chose RGBA to give me a wider range of colours but it is still hard to match swatch book colours.

Control - I tried using cheaper range desks, LSC Axiom, Jands Events, found Light Factory with its colour picker was best choice, but harder to busk with.

Linearity or smoothnes of dimmer steps - these suffer from steps at low light levels but I overcome this with fast fade times.

 

You need to do a lot of research, but LED lights are starting to get there. There have been some good posts on LED "Pars" onThe Blue Room.

 

ps. I use "Par" not Par as a LED is not a Parabolic Aluminised Reflector.

[Ashley R]

I believe I am using LEE # 250. Its permanently fixed to all my LED lights, as when they do a bit of up lighting it works wonders by blending the LED's and giving a more even and softer beam.

 

250 Half White diffusion - Y=60% - only 40% of the light absorbed :)

 

Even with one of those Tri LED par's I have still had small issues when I have been using them for up lighting (LED's are brilliant at this, but is where their flaws are most easily noticed!) Because there are only a handful of sources, in the first 20cm of wall I can see obvious lines, beyond that the LED's output blends into one beam. I would still add a bit of frost (diffusion in my case) to them to eliminate this.

 

For my LED pars (Blizzard Lighting PUCK's):

weight - was around the 4kg mark

build quality - not to bad, fairly solid steel case with a plastic cover, but give it some time (only had them for around 2 weeks)

Fan Noise - No fans, convection cooling (only has 150x 10mm LED's)

Beam angle - a bit narrow 21deg, but they are relatively cheap so you can many many more to compensate for this.

Colours - only RGB unfortunately, but I have seen a few RGBA ones, gotta get my hands on them!

control - Only 3P XLR, smooth dimming until there's two-three lumps to get to black

 

Maintenance - Easy quick access to all the goodies inside! only 8 screws and your in. and due to the design of the unit, there's absolutely nothing in your way :** laughs out loud **:

 

Size - Extremely small and compact, love them as I can fit about 2-3x as more PUCK's as I can standard LED par 56/64's in a packer. and they take up less shelf space (of which I have very very little!)

[xandersears]

Woops, I retract my comment on colour in the face of more knowledgeable comments :)