mikes for a primary school

[paulears]

This is HUGE overkill and a vast waste of your resources.

 

I've got some of theose Pulse mics, had them for years in the original manufacturers name - and they are really, really good.

 

The old Crowns and I suspect their replacements at normal pro-audio prices will have a sonic edge - BUT and it really is a huge but - need corresponding quality hikes in all your components and the environment to let you hear it. The equipment quoted is out of scale completely with what you are trying to do, and being frank, the chances of it doing what you think it will.

 

You are going to shove a fader. At some point all hell breaks loose and it becomes feedback city. You drop the level a little so that there is no feedback. You walk over to the speakers and wonder if they are on. The general rule is that if there is sound present, the mics will pick it up. If the loudest thing they can hear is lost in the background, then you are simply stuck. In the theatre here there are two boundaries (Crowns) on the stage edge. There is no way that they can allow even a fraction of the available system level to be used. Switching them in and out just lifts the general stage noise up a little so it perhaps gets over the foot tapping, rustling sounds of an audience. If a radio mic fails, then that character cannot be heard.

 

For recording they are great things - for real volume in a PA situation, they are poor. Frankly, a primary school should not, in my humble opinion, be even attempting this. Benefits are marginal, expense great and success rare. Get the teacher to help with projection, assuming they actually know something about this.

 

The expense of shotguns (and I note there's no mention of isolation mounts - which are 100% required if the floor noises are not going to be picked up) and their fragility in a Primary School mean they are a silly choice. They will get kicked and broken very quickly.

[Bobbsy]

I'd be very suspicious of any company that, to give you a bit of reinforcement on stage, recommends a 14 channel powered mixer, no speakers to accompany it, no cabling, and two shotgun mics, again with no cables or mounts mentioned.

 

If you really do need a whole sound system and not just a few mics to plug into an existing system, it's time to go right back to basics and (I hate to say it) get some professional help.

 

On the other hand, if you have some sort of system, then those Pulse mics would likely be just the ticket. (And, my hobby horse, buy 3 so you can have one centre stage which is where most school shows put the majority of their action).

 

Bob

[sleah]

I'd suggest the Liverpool company either lack experience or are on the make :o

 

What I have is a typical 1950's school hall and stage, we have junior and infant pantos, concerts and so on.

The system I'm using is 4 x Thomann shotguns at £60 each, a Spirit notepad mixer (4 mics + 2 line), a IMGStageline 125w X 2 amp and 2 x IMGStageline 125w platics speakers on sticks.

We line the mics up along the front of the stage and they get the kids to stand in front of a mic, the head of the mic comes just below their waistline (ish - depends how tall/small they are :huh: ) so they're not over powering the shotguns :P

I can't see in our situation how I could get it any better. Boundrys wouldn't work as they would have to be positioned on a 4inch lip of the stage and would be kicked constantly and I doubt I'd get any useful gain :)

 

The system works well, obviously not exactly top quality, but everyone is happy, the sound is perfectly acceptable.

 

Total cost: probably little more than the inc VAT price quoted for those two shotguns by the Liverpool company, and in my (and probably many other similar) situation those expensive mics would not make the slightest bit of difference over my cheap German ones, which never cease to suprise me at their quality and feedback rejection, when comapred to the old £400 sennheiser jobbies that were popular before cheap versions came out :D

[Ynot]

I'm going to argue that boundaries like the PCC160s can and DO work well for all sorts of situations BUT with the caveat that's also already been given - that the system needs to be set up properly with due thought to placement.

 

We have 3 PCC160s used regularly across the front of our 25 ft stage, and when the performers project enough there's easily enough gain to pick up and clarify chorus work - as long as it's been rung out etc. Our Nexo PS10 speakers (too expensive for a school I'd say, but that's what we have...) are hung from the grid, so are around 15 feet or so above the stage, and about 6 feet from the mics on the lateral.

 

Will boundaries make them sound like they have a radio mic? Hell no! But that's not what they're for. They're mainly reinforcement NOT direct PA.

Do they pick up foot taps? Of course they do, but that's helped by a piece of polystyrene foam under the mic plate.

[dirk54]

Thanks everyone. All your replies and advice just confirm that we don't know anything about sound. The stage that we have is a temporary construction from unistage (thanks for the advice obi wan, nice web site).

 

We have inherited some equipment including a yamaha powered mixer and matching speakers (the stand up type with rotary controls). We also have 4 around the ear and two conventional radio mikes that are used with limited success. After reading all of your kind comments I see where we have gone wrong with these (putting the amp under the stage in a set and forget mode).

 

When we get the system that we need we can fix the speakers to the walls but the mikes need to be moved away as does the control equipment. We are going to hold fire on buying any equipment until we know more except for buying one of the pulse mikes to test. If this doesn't work we can use it in our radio station so it wont be wasted. I've also been contacted by Audio Technica who are prepared to let us try a range of their mikes before we buy.

 

Many thanks for all of your advice. If there are any teachers reading this section, although we know nothing about stage sound, we can give advice about setting up a school radio station. You can listen to ours http://78.129.142.180:8127/ or through our web site http://www.allansonstreet.st-helens.sch.uk/ . Although it is running on auto this weekend for technical reasons the kids will be back on from Monday.

 

Many thanks for your kind advice.

[Junior8]

For goodness sakes I don't think I can recall looking at a discussion that's annoyed me more. In fact I can hardly keep my temper. Tell them to sing up and spend the money on something rather more vital to their education. Folk are going to see their kids perform - not to the West End! If the chorus can't be heard over the band the band is too loud. Go to the back of the hall and keep shouting for more until they can be heard! It's basic stuff this - you're just trying to add an unnecessary layer of technology with ever possible opportunity to let you down anyway.

[dirk54]

For goodness sakes I don't think I can recall looking at a discussion that's annoyed me more. In fact I can hardly keep my temper. Tell them to sing up and spend the money on something rather more vital to their education. Folk are going to see their kids perform - not to the West End! If the chorus can't be heard over the band the band is too loud. Go to the back of the hall and keep shouting for more until they can be heard! It's basic stuff this - you're just trying to add an unnecessary layer of technology with ever possible opportunity to let you down anyway.

 

Sorry if I've caused you to lose your temper. I'm only trying to get advice to help children gain confidence through drama and acting. Obviously many children do respond to 'sing up' but if you had read the earlier texts you would see that I stated that we didn't have a problem with singing. Its encouraging shy children to talk so that others can hear them. Talking, expressing yourself, gaining confidence, having the opportunity to express to a wider audience, surely a vital part of their education.

 

Best wishes

[paulears]

My own educational experience - based on 16+ rather than kids, is that those who are reticent to sing or talk due to awkwardness, embarrassment or poor self-asteem are in fact disadvantaged by amplification. I'm sure most people have seen this in even quite skilled speakers when faced with a microphone. As soon as they hear their voice louder than they expect, they actually hold the microphone further away. If the sound they hear has also bounced off the rear wall and returns to their ears even with a slight delay, then this impacts on their pronunciation too - speech becomes elongated to try to bring it back in sync in the same way that damage to the brain by illness or accident does.

 

If you have children who are finding it difficult to speak up, then the amplification increases their stress level and in all probability makes them even quieter.

 

There are plenty of esteem building fun exercises you can do that will help here. I don't think using technology to crack this one is sensible at all. It's been a while since my PGCE, but isn't increasing their anxiety by amplification actually a bad thing - and hearing yourself (or others) through a PA would add to the stress because they might feel that even a tiny voice from them will be heard, and that's exactly what they're trying to avoid by singing/speaking quietly?

[sleah]

Picking up on Pauls comments. I'd suggest that it can actually make the quieter ones stand out more.

The confident loud kids walk up to the mic and shout down it, sometimes leaning forward to get closer, whereas the quiet ones seen almost scared of the mic so the contrast between the loud kids and the quiet ones is much more noticeable.

Teachers don't seem to think like that though.... :P

[ojc123]

The original question was about the equipment suggested to the OP. Numerous good suggestions have been made about that.

 

I totally agree that the basic problem is quiet talent and that technology may make the problem worse rather than better. I strongly advise all the teachers who organise things on our stage not to use microphones for all the reasons stated above. Lack of rehearsal time means there isn't time to arrange the talent near microphones and, even, if I did, they'd just go to a different place anyway.

 

I have spent years using equipment little better than the stuff the OP is using and long ago came to the conclusion that it was a waste of effort. Even with the rather good kit we have now it is impossible to amplify nothing and the technology usually makes the loud louder and the nearly silent remain nearly silent. Occasionally the faint ringing of imminent feedback causes all of them to stop, turn round to look at the desk and look puzzled. None of this is good.

 

Mr Ears once again contributes words of wisdom and all his points are valid. You will get better results by concentrating on getting louder talent than messing with technology. However, please do not be put off continuing to ask for advice if you do go down the technology route. BR members are generally helpful and positive.

 

Good luck!

[andy_s]

I'll add my voice in support of the last three contributions. Technology (even if it works) is not the answer to this dilemma. Giving the children confidence in their own presentation skills and ability through drama and acting (not relying on the crutch of technology) is the right way to go.

[Bobbsy]

While I agree totally that children (heck, even adults) need to be taught to enunciate and project there is another factor too.

 

The expectations of audiences have evolved and most people have lost the ability to listen properly. I read a great study a while back that talked about this and firmly believe it's true. I suspect school kids are no quieter now than they were 40 years ago...but the parents have been spoiled by crystal clear sound in theatres, cinemas, churches....and now expect the same in schools.

 

Alas, there's no simple "turn it on and forget it" solution for school concerts.

 

I'll see if I can find that study I mentioned again and post a link.

 

Bob

[Junior8]

Sorry if I've caused you to lose your temper. I'm only trying to get advice to help children gain confidence through drama and acting. Obviously many children do respond to 'sing up' but if you had read the earlier texts you would see that I stated that we didn't have a problem with singing. Its encouraging shy children to talk so that others can hear them. Talking, expressing yourself, gaining confidence, having the opportunity to express to a wider audience, surely a vital part of their education.

 

Best wishes

 

Sorry it wasn't you really and I apologize for any offence I may have caused to the OP or anybody else. It's just that in my present career I have lost count of the number of times I have sat in tiny rooms faced with a couple of powered speakers and a twenty channel desk at the back while someone addressed a crowd of perhaps twenty people at an amplified level that nearly blows your head off. Or at concerts where the sound might be wonderful from the desk but abysmal everywhere else in the hall. And the truth is just as others have said the confident sound confident - the most self-confident put the mic down anyway - the reticent simply reticent but more obviously. And as others have said there is nothing worse than hearing your own voice come booming back at you - particularly if as in my case the accent doesn't match the rather suave self-image I have of myself.

 

I'll put my cards on the table after several years of teaching drama when everything was still in the steam age - one day I'll post a picture of a typical village hall installation - I left it alone for about ten years. Then I was asked to dust it all off and get involved again around 1989. When I got back I found the technology that I'd spent 1970-1980 dreaming about actually in place including radio mics that actually worked! I expected to be thrilled but actually wasn't as it seemed to me that the technology was in danger of taking over. I've been away from it all now for thirteen years but I'm beginning to fear that it has.