No swl for bars or roof

[Andygwk121]

Hi all I have read other topics and they have left me unclear on a specific answer for my question.

 

I have recently started a job at a new venue as lampie.

 

I have no plans with any form of weight loading for any bars or how much the roof can take. (no one does in the venue)

 

I have fixed bars held on by long bolt thread. this is the first thing I'm not happy with

 

I am also unclear as to what legislation fixed bars fall under. As loller covers lifting equipment.

 

Do these also need to be annually tested?

 

My first port of call would be that we need a structural engineer to assess the rig and determine the swl for the bars and the roof. Is this what others would do?

 

this rig is holding up 26 movers and generic rig so this really is a worrying problem.

 

I could do with finding the exact legislation witch can back up my point.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[paulears]

To be honest the threaded bar method is very common, often clamping to the steelwork, or via saddlesto the timber or brick/concrete work. The sructural engineer route is the one most of us would take, as they can easily produce safe loading limits, and provide you with documentation for the filing cabinet. With plenty of movers available, it's quite possible to overload a bar in innocence - so having a figure to work to, makes lots of sense.

[ianl]

I could do with finding the exact legislation witch can back up my point.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

 

 

puwer is probally the most relevant regulation, or possibly health and safety managment

 

I'm fairly sure you wont find a regulation stating your bars must be marked for swl. however both regs will talk about safe system of work, risk assesment etc

 

so in order to hang x lights safely you need to know the bar can support them safely ( with a suitable safety factor)

 

this could be done by hiring an engineer to tell you the maximum the building structure / bars will take and getting a plate for the bar and a plan, but it doesnt have to

 

it could be done by you deciding how much weight you want the bar to hold, multiplying by a safety factor, and either deciding yourself or paying a rigger or engineer to decide that that load is no problem

 

 

for example I have a lighting bar hung with suitable components from a structual beam, I loaad it with 12 fresnels max, I'm quite happy from my x years experience, my training and from inspecting the components to state that the swl is 12 x whatever a fresnel weighs. and I'll say it again in court if I have to and challenge the prosecution to prove otherwise

 

if you asked to put 26 moovers on it I would get a pen paper calculator, load data for aliscaf etc and do the maths. from this I would either say yes, no , or I'll hire someone to check

[Andygwk121]

I cant even get in to the roof above were the beams are as its apestos and the company dosent allow any one in to it

 

the engineer route is the one I want to take.

 

Basically I need a very good argument to get get management to fork out for one so I'm trying to find some legal legislation saying that I need to have it done.

 

Shorely with out knowing weight loads for the roof/bars I cant provide a safe working environment for the crew and each cast on stage?

[jonathanhill]

Word a risk assessment regarding hanging lights which has a high risk factor, lowered by the control measure of a SWL for each bar?

[Andygwk121]

Hi jonathan

 

Thanks

 

Thats exactly what I will do in the morning.

 

 

 

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

I wouldn't like to put my name stating that a beam can hold a certain weight. I dont think I could give an exact or even ball park figure just by looking at it.

[Stutwo]

You might find that if asbestos is involved, the process of testing a bar's SWL might disturb whatever is being left well alone. Tread very carefully, the implications for yourself and the venue would be considerable.

[Andygwk121]

Hi stu yes this is a gray area. there will be 2 risk factors involved here. detrmaing the swl will not be undertaken by me. So if I explain the situation to the a structural engineer they should be able to determine the right course of action in this matter. I also know that outside companys are allowed up there as all my DMX lines etc are run up there.

 

I really think a structural engineer is necessary in this instance. Im just trying to find out extra information to back up my argument.

 

Also if testing the bar may disturb this would overloading the bars not also create the same effect?

 

 

 

Thanks very much guys

 

Andy

[Paul TC]

I also know that outside companys are allowed up there as all my DMX lines etc are run up there.

Have you an asbestos register ? and were these companies aware of the prescence of asbestos ?

[kitlane]

Take a look at Regulation 4 of LOLER - Strength & Stability. "(b) every part of a load and anything attached to it and used in lifting it is of adequate strength"

 

The ACOP states (paragraph 101) "The lifting equipment should have adequate strength but you should pay particular attention to the mounting or fixing points."

 

You could argue that suspending a light is not a 'lifting' operation, but if you were to, for example, haul a mover up to the bar using a pulley attached to the bar then it would be a lifting operation.

 

BS7905 - 1 states "5.5.1 All anchorage points from which a load is to be suspended, raised or lowered, which are part of the fabric of the building or internal structure, shall have their strength determined and certified by a competent person"

[Ynot]

As for having an engineer in to assess the loading, I brought in a guy from SPS (Special Project Solutions) a few months back. Very detailed report received and all done in a day for our 250 seater venue.

Reasonably priced, too.

 

Details available if required by PM.

[DSA]

If access is an issue (due to asbestos etc.), it would be extremely helpful if you could get hold of any as-built drawings of the venue/installation. I know you say you have nothing, but it would be worth looking into fully, as a suitably qualified engineer (recommend chartered ICE/IStructE) may be happy to provide a rating based on this information if it is reliable and detailed enough. Which county is the venue in, and when (roughly) was it built?

 

Alternatively, you could load test it, but this may be difficult to achieve depending on the exact configuration (and particularly because of the asbestos issue).

 

Regretfully I think this is quite a common problem. The only way to categorically put a SWL on the bar may be to access the roof space, and for that you may need to deal with the asbestos, which would obviously increase the complexity (and no doubt cost) of the job. If it isn't considered safe for you to access the space, then I don't think anyone else should be expected to either (except those properly equipped/insured to do so).

 

Is the bar/are the fixings showing any signs of distress?

 

David

[ramdram]

Just seen this. Forget the structural thing and see about getting the air tested for asbestos fibres asap.

 

You would have no idea of the state of the asbestos ergo you cant know if there are cracks or holes and fibres are becoming airborne in any draughts.

 

You may find that a structural engineer might be a bit loth to get involved in an area where there may be airborne asbestos dust/fibres.

 

FYI:

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/risk.htm

[Junior8]

Someone will have done some calculations when the stuff was put in - but if you can't get hold of them and/or they don't exist and you feel the need to know for certain then someone will have to take a look. I have some sympathy with you too as for years I was involved in a venue where the bar suspensions simply went through ceiling panels and the fixings looked a bit amateurish. But 8 Patt 23s wasn't much of a load was it? The same place had no up-to-date drawings either...

 

You do make an excellent general point though. Gear has got steadily heavier and bulkier but in many places it simply just gets hung on what's been there happily unchecked for years.

 

The problem you face is the asbestos of course and I too have experience of this. Unfortunately in some circs they'll allow the building to carry on being used because any dangerous asbestos is safely secure in some well sealed void or other. They do the checks RamDram talks about. Break into that and you are in trouble - probably why your management won't allow access.

 

You don't say whether the suspensions are showing signs of any distress but I wouldn't worry too much about the threaded stud suspensions this stuff is pretty strong and you can work out the likley safe loading of it yourself if you know the diameter. It's what you can't see that might be the problem - but there seems to be no way around that!

[Brian]

... you can work out the likley safe loading of it yourself if you know the diameter.

I did it for M12 a while ago.