Help with microphones

[obi wan kenobi]

Hi, can anyone suggest a suitable alternative to suspended microphones?

 

The problem lies with some audio-technica pro45's, they have vary little pic up. The mic's are used in a primary school and were installed to elliminate the need for children to hold mic's or use lapels as they tend to fidgit with them.

 

Boundary mics such as the pro44's are also not suitable as the stage can be quite noisy so the mics pic up a lot of residual noise.

 

Are shotgun mic's a good alternative or maybe an upgrade of the suspended mics if anyone knows of a really good on that has superb pic up?

 

Thanks

[paulears]

Suspended mics seldom work well as they don't point at people's mouths, so they can only amplify the ambient sound they can hear. Shitgun style microphones are like lighting your kids with torches, hit or miss as to who is in the right place, and as people move, they sort of drop out - they can in good acoustic conditions be heard to have a kind of phasey sound which is a product of comb filtering.

 

Without any doubt at all, PCC style boundary mics will work the best, and unless your stage is incredibly bouncy, noise is rarely an issue - and if it is, a piece of thin foam works pretty well.

Paul

[revbobuk]

Shitgun style microphones...

 

If that was a deliberate mistake, then I suspect it won't be long before the word enters widespread usage

[Dave SA]

I've already dibs on the term thanks.

[obi wan kenobi]

Shiteguns, I like it. Thanks Paul, I'll defo look into insulating the boundary mics with foam, should be a good fix.

 

Obi

[paulears]

what have I done!! I've got a spell checker on firefox and it doesn't object to this!

 

Spot mics, flown overhead, do work - but fail on mumblers, or people who don't project - which is of course exactly the people we want to hear. If you PFL an overhead mic when people are on stage, you hear all sorts of things - lots of feet and not too much else! Shotguns when PFL'd do have much more voice in them - but they don't go that deep upstage because the front runners mask the people behind. I did use these for quite while before I started using boundaries, and I'd never go back - PLUS shotguns always get kicked and look naff!

[Bobbsy]

Do your hanging mics have the hanging brackets like THIS? If not, then perhaps you could make something similar out of coat hanger wire. That's what I did and, hanging the mics just upstage of the proc arch, angled farther upstage, I get improved pick up of people farther upstage. The lower you can hang them the better but obviously this is a compromise with visual intrusion and lighting shadows.

 

However, I tend to use them in conjunction with boundary mics across the lip of the stage. I'll echo what Paul said--on most stages, their isolation from foot noise is pretty good but, in really bad situations, a bit of thin foam (a mouse mat is ideal) helps a fair bit. Don't go too thick though...the boundary mics work by being on a flat surface to avoid out of phase sound bouncing up off the stage.

 

The other solution I have that would be hard to copy is using small diaphram condensers like AKG451 or Blue Lines with extension tubes so the mic body can be down low but the inobtrusive capsules up nearer the kids. I find 3 or so of these work a treat--but AKG, in their wisdom, seem to have discontinued the tubes. If you see any of them on eBay, snap them up. They're a real find.

 

As always though, the other trick that makes all the above work is actively mixing among the mics to suit the action on stage. Keeping the smallest possible number of mics open really helps to avoid many of the pitfalls (but obviously depends on a good operator all the time, not always practical in schools).

 

Bob

[McIvy]

Beg to differ folks, but please don't tar all SHOTGUNS with the same broadbrush. There are many different types and patterns. You get what you pay for and admittedly, decent Shots don't come cheap, but in my experience they are by far the best method of long range stage pickup, particularly for quiet-voiced youngsters.

 

Agreed that good low profile cardioid (not omni!) boundaries are aesthetically better for stage apron pick-up and can work quite well.

 

Perhaps suggest to OP that a combination be looked at?

 

Also, not to forget critical speaker type and positioning?

 

Having said all that, the OP's scenario is actually one of the most difficult problems in sound reinforcement. Good luck!

 

McIvy

[paulears]

It's fine Ian, but I think we actually are tarring the entire lot - not just shotguns, but even perhaps hypercardioids too.

 

I've no quibble whatsoever with the performance of shotguns in getting pickup at a distance, upstage. The snag I've always found was that it was difficult to group them to get even coverage that worked on a row of people on stage, without highlighting the people on-line with the tube - which of course is what they're brilliant for. It's a long time now since I've seen a re-equip of a pro venue with shotguns. The old crowns became as close to a standard as I've seen.

 

I'd still consider shotguns when I needed to amplify people upstage - but I really cannot say any grouping of shotguns I've tried has been truly succesful. I've tried short shotguns, long shotguns and combinations, but bring up the faders on all of them in chorus numbers and the hollow sounding filtering becomes very obvious - and somebody singing and moving tends to go loud/soft/loud/soft as they traverse the width - something that doesn't happen anywhere near so much with PCCs. The visual impact juts tips the scales enough for me to rule them out on most occasions. I have both available, but I keep the shotguns for what they're really good at - focusing on individuals. Oh - and dancers kick them frequently!

[Bobbsy]

Coming from the TV industry, I've used shotguns all my life and am a big fan--when they can be aimed at one specific person or sound source. For general coverage on a stage, they are far from ideal. Like Paul, I've used them from time to time as a "get out of jail" card to give me pick up from a specific dead corner of the stage--but I've never found them very useful for general reinforcement.

 

One other issue with them, of course, is that sneaky little lobe to the rear. Trying to put them across the front of the stage all too often results in great pickup of the band, the audience--or reflections off the auditorium walls from your FOH speakers.

 

Bob

[kerry davies]

Maybe Bobbsy has the answer to an old question.

Long time back a TV company hung four/five mics high above and in front of an orchestra we had as part of a community event and got a superb coverage. The techs said they were a form of shotgun and, due to time factors, I didn't get a chance to get a good look.

Would this kind be an answer for the OP and if so, what the hell are they?

[obi wan kenobi]

I think that taking everyone’s responses into account, I shall opt for the PCC boundaries for a number of reasons, firstly the performers will be clumsy 6 to 11 year olds therefore shotguns are a likely target to be kicked, secondly the stage is long and shallow so it is more of a distributed sound pick up the school are after rather than a targeted dead space on the stage.

 

Thanks for the responses

 

Obi

[Bobbsy]

@Kerry

 

Well, back before the days of everything being M/S stereo, by far the most common short shotgun used in TV and film was the Sennheiser MKH416 or it's predecessor the 415 which looked fairly similar in shape and size. Beyond that, it could have been any of the standard shotguns.

 

If it was the 416, I doubt they'd be suitable for sound reinforcement at a school, if only because (from memory) they're about a £600 microphone and you'd need a number to cover a whole stage. As good as the quality is on distant pickup, they still suffer from the problems of a tight pattern and rear lobe .

 

Bob

[paulears]

416s are still excellent - and tend to be almost standard kit found in the TV cupboard - similar to BBC local radio OBs using Beyer 201s on everything because they give tehm what the sound supervisors usually want - separation. Spot miking for orchestras for radio and tv is still quite common for less prestigious (as in lower budget) productions because you can simply use them to spotlight the sections - brass, strings, woodwind etc - and then have a bit of control when the sections are unbalanced. The usual X/Y, A/B, M/S or even cleverer mic techniques fall down when the musicians are either quantity or quality limited - those damn trumpets wiping out everything out!

[McIvy]

Actually, what I should have said is that I would not deploy shots across front of stage, neither onstage itself nor on stands beneath. Totally agree that they look naff and would indeed get hoofed.

 

In an ideal world they would be flown from bars, out of sightline and mainly aimed at Upstage areas, leaving front apron for the floats. Remember the 3/1 rule and with careful placement of shortshots (not too long),you'll avoid hot and cold spots.

 

Does take a lot of trial and error with careful blocking and scripting but definately works. However, I recognise that the OP's situation is a little unpredictable, so I guess hire some cardioid floats and see what you get, but don't write off the idea of shots.

 

McIvy