Large Gig

[d85kennedy]

Evening folks

 

I work part-time with a local sound engineering firm. They mainly do outdoor events that require public address re-entrant speakers and radio mics etc that cover outdoor arenas. We also setup systems for speeches at dinner or launch events. Mostly 1 or 2 microphones a single amp and enough speakers to cover the area.

 

I have been asked to get involved with a local charity gig in setting up for a rock concert. This is the first time I have done a "gig" this large, we are expecting between 200-800 people. There will be 2 bands.

 

I have hired 4 x d&b E12 speakers + 2 x E12 subs and 4 x M4 wedges, 3x D12 Amps, 24ch desk and all the amps, cables and mics necessary.

 

Does anybody have some advice to get the best out of the system as it is not my area of expertise.

 

This is also the first time in setting up multicore cables for the microphones and the speakers, does anybody have any reference material for CEEP multicore microphone and Veam speaker cable?

 

Would you keep the amps FOH and run the speaker multicore to the stage or run the XLR outputs from the desk to the stage and hide the amps under the stage?

 

We are also hiring a stage and I am concerned about the power, there are 2 standard double sockets either side of the stage. Will this be enough to run all 3 amps, the bands equipment and the lighting rig. What other options could I look at for power supply?

 

And finally, the band have requested 7 mics for the drum-kit. Personally, I think this is excessive especially as I will have to change the drum kit for the bands. What is optimum way of mic'ing up the kit. I was thinking 1 bass, 1snare+hi-hat, 1xtoms and 2 overhead for symbols.?

 

Your help and advice is much appreciated.

 

Cheers

D

[LXbydesign]

I dont want to sound like a grump , becasue this kind of post could drag on for eternity with views from people from all 4 corners of the planet.

 

As a quick and simple answer, may I suggest you just take someone with you who knows what they're doing!!

 

Job done

[niclights]

Amps at stage.

 

Dual 32 band EQ in line with main outputs will help 'tune' system if required.

One channel of 32 band EQ for each monitor mix almost essential to avoid feedback. Will four wedges be enough? I would expect a norm of pairs of wedges for each mix - ie. a basic setup might be 3x mixes across the front and one for the kit making eight wedges. Not necessarily vital but you could find yourself struggling.

 

As for the drum kit itself are you sure it's just one tom? More often than not there will at least be one rack and one floor. However, you might not really need the overheads. Depends on how lively the room is and the sort of material.

[Doug Siddons]

It would be useful to know where abouts the gig is and when, as with the greatest of respect, it looks like you will need a mentor with more experience for this one. Maybe a post in the unpaid work available could help you.

[Dave SA]

4 tops and 2 subs? Er... if you change that to 4 subs and 2 tops you might have a chance.

 

I also STRONGLY suggest you get someone on board with experience. That D&B gear is expensive to 'fix'...

[Simon Lewis]

I don't want to sound too negative either, but for the sake of the punters and the bands, get someone who knows what they are doing to work the gig. Your skills from the PA end of the market may not be sufficient in this situation...

[Wilflet]

generally amps at stage end returns down multi. it will generally become obvious when you see what the hire company sends cable wise.

 

As for seven drum mics being excessive- picking up the nearest band rider I have to hand

Channel Instrument Mic Insert Stand

1 Kick (cond) Beta 91 Gate 1, Group Comp Short

2 Kick (dynamic) Beta 52 Gate 2, Group Comp Short

3 Snare Top SM 57 Gate 3, Group Comp Short

4 Snare Bottom Beta 57 Gate 4, Group Comp Short

5 Snare 2 Top Sm57 Gate 5, Group Comp Short

6 Snare 2 Bottom Beta 57 Gate 6, Group Comp Short

7 Hi Hat AE3000 Short

8 Rack Tom 1 Beta 98, Senn 604 Gate 7, Group Comp

9 Floor Tom 1 Beta 98, Beta 52, Senn 604 Gate 8, Group Comp

10 Ride SM 81 Short

11 OH stage right AT 4050, KSM 32 Tall

12 OH stage left AT 4050, KSM 32 Tall

13 Drum Samples Radial JD48 Comp

 

this was touring into 800ish capacity venues, they played to around 600 on the night. not much above the scale your asking about.

you probably dont have the second snare or samples to worry about, maybe if its closer to the 200 end of things you can reduce ride and oh down to 1 mic.

Kick (out) Sn (top), Sn(bottom), hats, rack, rack, floor, overhead is still 8 and fairly standard for the amount of people you say your mixing to. alot of engineers would use inside kick aswell if its more towards the 800 end than the 200 end of the scale. Though to an extent you may be limited by the 24 channel desk, if theres lots of keys, backing vocals, brass section, fx returns etc you may get to the point where you have to drop overheads/2nd kick/snare bottom to fit it.

 

As for power theres just two many variables to give a straight answer- 'the lighting rig' requirements could be anything from 1 amp (couple of leds) to hundreds of amps (though this would be overkill for the size gig)

[Biro]

Get someone who knows what they are doing...it could go very wrong otherwise.

 

 

Where is the gig, we may be able to help you out.

[paulears]

Ok - I'll have a go.

 

If you have enough microphones then it could just be simpler to put one on each bit of the kit and one or two overheads. Once you've got all your other sources covered then the usual thing will be to remember to keep it simple - and not try to move too far in the first gig. So rig it all and make sure you have at least one reverb plumbed in. Also - assuming enough desk channels, don't forget a mic that you can route to the foldback so you can talk to the people on stage rather than bellowing. Really handy in the soundcheck.

 

Assuming again you've planned where on the desk you want the channels to emerge, and we've all got our own system - me, I like the main vocal mics in the middle, and drums on my left - but as long as the labels are clear, it will work. First thing - line checking. Do all the sources actually work? Once they do, it's soundcheck time. Do the drums first and get them out of the way. I hope you've had experience of eq tweaking, if not it will take a while. Once you've done them all set the balance on the drums - do the same with instruments, then the vox. Almost certainly you'll end up setting rough monitor levels while you're doing this, and once eq is about right, try to work on the monitors then - you'll end up adjusting eq again of course, but it's a compromise. Once you're set - if yiu have two bands you have to make a decision. On an analogue desk, you could do the entire process again for the next set-up writing down all the settings, or make the decision that one band get the most accurate and best sound - the other makes do. If you use similar mic positions it won't be miles away, but you will end up making some choices live. You need to know which adjustments are going to cause you agro. Which eq is right on the edge and might feedback if they move - which drum on the kit is poorly tuned so you need to watch for it. Then you busk it - just watch carefully for who is doing what so when you hear something 'wrong', you can have the hand on the right knob straight away. Do the harmonies change song by song - so the BV becomes the main vox for one bit only. How about lead lines - if the song needs the synth louder for 4 bars, will you remember - or probably not if they've not even warned you.

 

For your first gig on your own use your ears to add or remove sound sources to make it sound 'right'.

 

Your 4 tops and 2 subs might well sound lightweight if you want kick in the guts heavy metal, if it's a jazz band, no problem.

 

A few 13A sockets on stage sounds tricky - and the mention of lighting using them too sounds like a problem. All these sockets might be on the same circuit, so we can't say if it's good or not. I've seen quite loud systems run off a single 13A outlet, using the other for the back line - on the other hand, I've seen quite modest looking systems pop the breakers.

 

What I typed above is so generic that it's probably of no use - we really can't explain the job like this, and even if we could, it wouldn't make much sense. You need some help. If you tell us where the gig is, you could find some keen soul will come and give a hand?

[d85kennedy]

Hi guys

 

Thanks for the quick response. Maybe I have undersold myself a little bit. I've done small bands before in local pubs and have 12years PA experience. Last year we setup a large showgroumd and had 24 separate systems on site.

 

There is no worry about blowing the gear up or making it sound crap. Perhaps I should have asked for some best practises.

 

The advice with the drums is excellent. I will definatley get more mics around it.

 

 

Thanks to Paulears for the general tips on the drum kit. Advice I will sure follow.

 

The band itself is a Heavy rock band. I've used the d&b speakers before but wouldn't have though about only getting 2tops and 4bass bins. What is the advantage to this over my original 4top and 2bass? I was always quite happy the e12 tops full range kick and included the bins only really for bass guitar and bass drum.

 

Power is a big issue for us. I don't know the size of the lighting rig. I was thinking of keeping the amps FOH cos I will be using a separate socket to spread the load.

 

I'm interested in the 32EQ channel. This would give me greater control and shouldn't be too long to setup.

 

Only gone for 4wedges purely due to stage size - would love to have more. Anybody recommend smaller wedges instead?

[LXbydesign]

Would certainly recommend you find out what lighting they bringing!!

 

If they are expecting to share your 2 double sockets with their 12 x PAR 64 rig (for example) then theres gonna be a problem!

 

However, if they are planning to run 12 or so LED fixtures then thats do-able. If they are planning to bring in more heavyweight stuff, then they may need to think about extra power.

 

The advice here so far has been great - although of course very generic becasue we cant pinpoint your exact requirements!

 

As said, if you let us know where and when it is - im sure someone would offer to come down and help out.

[niclights]

Wedges re. stage space is fair enough. If they don't fit then you probably don't need them (separate mixes aside) though I might still question whether you have enough to cover the kit. In terms of amps do you have enough channels to run required number of separate mixes?

 

Dual 32 band EQ on the FOH is pretty standard stuff. But a separate EQ on each monitor mix is arguably much more important, especially when running monitors from FOH with the inevitable compromises. Talking of which it can be useful to Y-split some channels so that you can EQ one for FOH and one for monitors. This obviously depends on how many channels you have spare, but splitting just the main vocal might help a great deal.

[d85kennedy]

Power is going to be a complete PITA. Need to speak to the venue spark once know the size of the lighting rig.

 

I've got 3 amps with 2 channels each. Band have only asked for vocals and sound effects through the wedges so I've got that covered on the aux sends from the amp. Actually only got 2singers and the drums to cover with the wedges so have a spare. Might keep that behind me at FOH so I can hear what they hear.

 

Thanks for all the offers of help. The gig is in Scotland so prob quite a treck. I'm going to speak to a local company for some work experience in that area.

[paulears]

Top Tip

They may well have only asked for vocals and effects through the wedges, but if the venue capacity means a big room, and you have a big enough stage, then their own stage sound they could be used to may well vanish, and they won't be able to hear themselves. The last thing you want is them then turning everything up - it makes life hell! So despite what they intend, it's odds on you'll be asked for a bit of bass and drums for the singer, then maybe the other instruments as soon as they hear the tempo, but can't find the pitch (which always happens with bass guitar). It's rare for a band to ever be happy with a compromise monitor mix unless they're real beginners and don't know better!

[TonyMitchell]

we are expecting between 200-800 people. There will be 2 bands.

 

I have hired 4 x d&b E12 speakers + 2 x E12 subs and 4 x M4 wedges, 3x D12 Amps, 24ch desk and all the amps, cables and mics necessary.

 

There is a HUGE difference in what is required to provide good even sound coverage for 800 people and 200 people.

 

Even thnking toward the lower number, the FOH system is grossly underpowered in respect of the LF and your ratio of LF to MHF boxes is the wrong way around.

 

I assume you are going to be running FOH mono in "Mix Top/Sub" from one D12. You could add another pair of E12X subs to the same D12. Do you need four E12s? (their horizontal dispertion is 80 degrees).

 

 

I've got 3 amps with 2 channels each. Band have only asked for vocals and sound effects through the wedges so I've got that covered on the aux sends from the amp. Actually only got 2singers and the drums to cover with the wedges so have a spare. Might keep that behind me at FOH so I can hear what they hear.

 

If vox could share a mix, you could run just two mixes to the stage (vox and drumfill) so you then only need one D12 on mons, (sacrifice your listen wedge) - that gives you two D12s for FOH so you have got some redundancy and can hire more FOH boxes.

 

Which d&b rental house are you using? Who specified the system - you or them? Q would seem to make much more sense from what you've described - have you considered this option?