Help with a tender document

[obi wan kenobi]

Hi guys,

 

I have recieved my first tender document since I have embarked on my sound and lighting career, however, it has highlighted my lack of experience as it has introduced aspecs which I have no idea about.

 

I will paste the requirements below and if anyone could break it down for me I would be grateful, the main concdern is the setup between the IWB's, the dimmer and the use of and RDM DMX isolator/buffer.

 

Requirements:

 

 

5 no.: Bespoke labelled internally wired 48mm barrel lighting bar -

 

 

 

· 1 no IWB (No.1 Bar): Overstage 8m / 10 x 15A individually dimmed outlets / 1 x XLRSF isolated and buffered DMX outlet / 1 x 16A 10 cee-form outlet to provide protected hard power • 1 no IWB (No.2 Bar): Flood Bar 8m / 6 x 15A outlets

 

· 1 no IWB (No.3 Bar): Cyc Bar 8m / 12 x l5A outlets with wired back to

 

• 4 dimmer circuits for cyclorama lighting
  
• 2 no IWB (FoH Bar): Front of house 8m / 10 x l5A individually dimmed outlets / 1 x XLRSF isolated and buffered DMX outlet / 1 x 16A 10 cee-form outlet to provide protected hard power.
  

 

Note second FoH Bar can now be substituted by outlets on balcony.

 

 

 

 

 

Dimming, DMX Network & Control -

 

 

 

• 1 no: High grade wall mount Zero Chilli 24 x 2.4K (total 24 circuits) compact dimmer pack & related fixing materials to wall.
  
• 1 no: Plug and socket patch panel comprising 30 x 15A plugs and 36 x 15A sockets
  
• 1 no: Bespoke mains distribution cabinet adjacent to the dimmers to supply all dimmer packs, high level hard power outlets and DMX network distribution/buffer unit 1 off : 6-way AL Rail-Split RDM DMX isolator / buffer, PSU and wall mount enclosure
  
• 3 no: Pre-wired, labelled DMX input panel (control room, top of seating and hall floor down stage right)
  
• 1 no: Zero SS Jester ML48 console c/w monitor and 3m DMX cable
  

 

 

 

Fixtures -

 

 

 

• 3 no: Selecon LUI4 x 1000W 4-cell Cyclorama Flood
  
• 6 no : Selecon HUI 800W Flood
  
• 12 no: ETC Source 4 Junior Zoom Profile
  
• 4 no: Selecon Acclaim 650W Fresnel with barndoor set
  
• 6 no: Selecon Rama 1.2kW Fresnel c/w barndoor set
  

Thanks vary much guys

 

Obi

[paulears]

Is there anything in there causing a specific problem? Seems quite tight really, although there's some flexibility in the socket arrangments? However, some items will be tricky to source. Are you intending building it all yourself?

[son of lx dad]

Not quite sure what you are asking here? Surely if you don't know what these things are, you would struggle to work out how to install them successfully - though I'm not quite sure the person who wrote the spec quite understands what it all means either.

[bruce]

There is no reason why you cannot ask the client for clarification if you think the spec is unclear or ambiguous - although in this case it's pretty clear.

 

 

Off-topic:

It's perhaps a little naughty, but I have been known when writing tenders to slip a ridiculous clause into the middle, just to get the tenderer's attention and to get them to give me a call rather than just run it through the Tender-o-Matic!

 

(eg "Printed and electronic copies of all manufacturers documentation and an O&M manual must be provided. All documentation must be provided in English. Suppliers must state whether they would be prepared to provide documentation in additional alternative formats (eg spoken audio recording, scots gaelic or klingon translation))

[Russ83]

Nothing too out of the ordinary but I can't get the patch panel to add up...perhaps I'm missing something.

 

Bar1: 10x 15A Individual - 10 channels

Bar2: 6x 15A - doesn't specify individual or paired - Assume 6 channels

Bar3: 12x 15A Grouped - 4 channels**see below

Bar4: 10x 15A Individual - 10 channels

Bar5: 10x 15A Individual - 10 channels

 

That to me adds up to 40 channels/plugs coming back to the patch panel not 36. Why only 30 sockets? Just seems an odd number but there may be a good reason for it.

 

** This is implying that one cell from each of the three LUI are on the same channel but this gives a load of 3kw per channel and the Chilli is only rated at 2.4kw

[andy_s]

3000W floods powered by 2400W dimmer?

 

E2A - opps, crossposting. must type faster.

 

I also noticed the discrepancy in numbers between outlets and patch plugs (40/30), and patch socket and dimmers (36/24) - I assumed the latter was to allow for expansion when an extra 12 dimmers could be afforded...

[obi wan kenobi]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies, my main problem is with the RDM isolator, why is it there and what does it do, how do you intergrate it with the circuit?

 

Thanks

[ramdram]

Ref #7.

 

For example:

 

http://www.ecue.com/products/accessories/rdm-isolator.html

 

google is your friend btw...now get the tech specs:

 

http://www.ecue.com/products/accessories/rdm-isolator.html

 

then see who sells one then ask them what it does etc etc.

 

Just a word to the wise...asking on an open forum about doing stuff you may or may not be expected to know...

 

Found this too:

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/lofiversion/in...php/t28951.html

 

HTH

[gareth]

The Artistic Licence Rail-Split mentioned in the tender document is a simple 6-way DMX buffer/splitter - the only difference between it and the more-usually encountered type of unit is that it has screw terminals rather than XLR connectors, and mounts either on a DIN rail or screwed to a surface inside a cabinet. Have you looked at the Artistic Licence website? They're pretty good for online documentation for their products.

 

To be brutally honest, if you don't know how a simple DMX splitter integrates into a small system like that, should you really be tendering to install it? I only ask because, if and when things go wrong with the installation in the future, it's going to be you that the client looks to in order to troubleshoot the system, and in order to do that you're going to need to know how it all works.

[obi wan kenobi]

Gareth, I do understand what the rail split does, I have taken the time to research the product and also been in regular contact with a guy called Simon at artistic licence, I know that it is to distribute electrical current over the DMX network, I also know that it is really only used with over 32 lighting units (this job has requested 31) and generally over a distance greater than 300m (as stated by Simon at artistic licence).

 

I am mearly asking for advice as to why the client would have requested it and what purpose it would serve in this Tender. As to the replies about 40 terminals going to a 36 socket patch panel, I assume that a 36 patch panel has been requested in relation to the 31 lighting units. The patch panel is needed to aid the creative curriculum in secondary schools and the GCSE requires knowledge of stage sound and lighting techniques.

[gareth]

Gareth, I do understand what the rail split does ... I also know that it is really only used with over 32 lighting units (this job has requested 31) and generally over a distance greater than 300m (as stated by Simon at artistic licence).

Obi, I'm not being rude, but that statement proves that you *don't* really understand how and why to use this unit. The tender document calls for three of the lighting bars to have "isolated and buffered" DMX outlets on them, and that's the purpose of including this item on the spec. You might only have a couple of DMX-eating fixtures on each bar (and contrary to what you seem to suggest through your comment, the 32 'lighting units' on this spec have nothing to do with the maximum amount of fixtures you can hook into a DMX stream, as they're all incandescent lanterns which plug into dimmed mains feeds), and the run to each bar might only be a few metres - but you'll still need a DMX buffer/splitter to get the DMX feed to the right places.

[obi wan kenobi]

Gaz, you're right I dont know how and why to use the unit, that is what I am trying to find out!! I understand what the unit does, as I have spoken to the manufacturers, I have never used one before and thought I could get some helpful advice on here about how to use it and why it is specifically needed.

 

cheers

[andy_s]

Perhaps because the client is seeking to future-proof the installation and allow for expansion? This approach is not unheard of.

 

Or perhaps because there is a expectation of hiring in extra equipment requiring a DMX address on a regular basis? One has only to read posts on the Blue Room to see that the ambitions of school / college theatre producers are limitless.

 

Or perhaps because it's an installation for teaching purposes, and the plan is to famiiarise students with equipment and good practice that they might come across in the wider world even if not strictly necessary in that particular venue?

 

However, don't speculate, ask the client. There should be a mechanism in place to allow discussion between client and prospective contractor for clarification of tender items.

 

And regarding the patch panel, from the figures you quote, there are 10 or more outlets in the theatre which would seemingly not appear on the panel. Perhaps this was a typo, and you meant to write "36 plugs, 36 sockets", but even so, this is still not enough for the outlets on the IWBs. Most patch panels would have more plugs than sockets. This is also worth discussing with the client.

[Ynot]

Obi...

 

I just have to pop an observation in here.

 

you say this is the first tender you've been asked to submit - nothing wrong with that as such - everyone has to start somewhere.

 

However, what actual experience do you have with install work?

Have you been employed by a registered and reputable company prior to this as an install technician?

Are you qualified to work out what can safely be hung from the venue's architecture and how to do so safely?

Do you have electrical training which mean you're qualified to make the install safe?

 

From what you've posted so far here it looks rather like you're maybe biting off more than you can chew - sorry if that sounds blunt.

But as paul points out, if you're struggling with the basics now, come the time you're asked to come back and repair under the warranty that you are OBLIGED to give your client I suspect you may be over your head...

[gareth]

Gaz, you're right I dont know how and why to use the unit, that is what I am trying to find out!! I understand what the unit does, as I have spoken to the manufacturers, I have never used one before and thought I could get some helpful advice on here about how to use it and why it is specifically needed.

 

cheers

I've just told you why it's needed!!

 

Regarding the patch panel, I have no idea why the tender document is as it is. There are 40 circuits of socket outlets (not allowing for the glaring error of the cyc flood bar, which spec's three 1000w cyc floods 'hard-paired' into 2400w dimmers!), and 24 dimmer channels, which should suggest a patch panel with 24 outlets and 40 plugs - not the 36 and 30 as per the spec. Either there are things in that document which are there specifically to catch people out, or it was written by someone who really doesn't understand what they're asking for.