Crazy rates of pay devaluing our industry?

[ramdram]

Ref #14

 

It is a very interesting point about such working agreements involving "no pay".

 

IF these agreements are illegal, then would you be party to an illegal act were you to accept such a "position", and consequently render yourself liable to prosecution?

 

It then follows that could your Union support you if you did in fact agree to work for no pay? Ignorance is no defense in law, so they say.

[Brian]

IF these agreements are illegal, then would you be party to an illegal act were you to accept such a "position", and consequently render yourself liable to prosecution?

No.

 

Also, I've seen somewhere an employment lawyer's opinion that there is nothing to stop you accepting one of these positions, even knowing the situation, and then taking your employer to a tribunal to claim the NMW.

[Stan Hope-Streeter]

Well if it's someone on the NMW that makes a 4.2 Hour call.....

 

I was getting £25 for a show call (casual sound operator) at my local theatre in 1980. And it was a short walk from my home, so no costs involved other than deductions for tax and NI.

 

That's thirty years ago ...

 

The industry has already been devalued. Too many people are willing to work for nothing, or nearly so.

 

After all, if Auntie Joan can perform in the local Townswomen's Guild Dramatic Society for free, why should anybody be paid to work in a theatre?

[Bobbsy]

Alas, it's supply and demand--and the supply seriously outstrips the demand. You only have to read this forum to see how many keen youngsters there are desperate to get involved in what is considered a desireable (or "cool" or "glamourous" "sexy") job.

 

Even the union suggestion won't really help as long as there are hundreds of non-union youngsters willing to take any job for any money. Unions are a good idea at the higher levels of the job but there will always be small production "companies" (and I use the term loosely) who are desperate to do a production and will try to do it for far less than the true costs. They're non-union (of course) and pay themselves a pittance then, because technical considerations come last, try to pay a technician even less. They usually succeed because there are always people willing to do it.

 

I don't know what the solution is (or even if there is one). As long as theatre is perceived as a desirable job, this sort of thing is going to happen.

 

Bob

[kerry davies]

This is not as straightforward as a simple low pay subject.

 

The principal of the company involved has been through fairly normal sector academic training, (HND in Performing Arts and Media, Mid Kent College) has set up a commercial enterprise and is an employer. What sort of training has this person received? Is it 'fit-for-purpose'? Does it give graduates a realistic sense of comparative value? Does the training relate to real-world conditions? Are graduates provided with sufficient knowledge to protect them from the legal ramifications of their actions?

I would hazard a guess and say a resounding NO to all the above.

 

OK, so the advertiser cannot be blamed for the failings of the academic system. What does the business need to do? Surely licensing or regulation after the fact is too late?

 

Most here know that I believe we are in a vocational business and that paper qualifications do not satisfy industry needs. The facts are that the larger the academic intake, the poorer the quality. On the GIGO principle, and the fact that you simply cannot give everyone a medal and maintain standards, the subsequent generations of teachers must be of lower quality. The best academic institutions use industry experience but the vast majority rely on paper selection of tutors and when 'soft' studies attract disproportionate numbers of students the devaluation starts and ends in education.

[dynamo_ozz]

I hear you all. It's a real shame. From now on, wherever I see an advertisement which says, "we need this/that type crew/tech for so and so job but our budget doesn't allow us to pay" I will just say: "NO PAY = NO CREW. SIMPLES!" In fact, I have just done it. Can't we at least start passively reacting against it?

 

For the last two weeks I am fighting with a producer who is trying to get me build a set for him for free. Set designer has just left the job and after sending a clear email about how he feels about him to the producer. After this, I am leaving too. It's as if we are living in John Steinbeck's novel, The Grapes of Wrath.

 

Do we really need to have this many theatre schools, degrees, HNDs, and other programmes for technical theatre? Where are we heading to?

[ramdram]

Ref #17. Thanks for info Brian; but would that view from lawyer need to be tested in court do you suppose?

 

Ref #21. In response to last question...judging by paid technician bloke we had this season then down the road to mediocrity and possibly worse.

 

(Top Tip: Always ask for several references and take them up, and, check out the venues mentioned in CV. I believe you could ask the question, "Would you employ this person again?" It only needs a one word answer...)

[Brian]

Ref #17. Thanks for info Brian; but would that view from lawyer need to be tested in court do you suppose?

Probably.

 

It's interesting to read this...

 

Who is not entitled to the National Minimum Wage?

[zonino]

my understanding is that it is the employers obligation to pay the NMW, in the same way that you can't exempt yourself from your employers requirement to provide a healthy & safe working environment, you can't exempt yourself from your employers requirement to pay the national minimum wage.

[Dodgecaliber]

My Opinion on the matter is that there is simply far too many colleges and unis spilling out teenage technician's.

 

 

Now im not having a rant at those of a similar or younger age, if you are interested in joining the industry then by all means, as an example in Glasgow there are around 4 or 5 colleges that offer tech theatre or sound production. Each has 20 - 30 students, so that works out as upto 150 new 'techs' each year. And thats not including the RSAMD or alike.

 

 

 

A lot of the younger folk are willing to work on jobs like this and willing to accept buttons just to get a foot in the door.

 

 

In my view, it's the desperate few that are setting the trend of accepting undercut wages, this mainly but not totally comes from students or the recently qualified.

 

The job we do is not a simple 9 - 5, it's 25 hour and 8 day weeks with solid graft the whole way through.

[zonino]

oh, also, Bectu have done lots of work in the TV/Film industry on NMW (the person leading on this in Bectu is, I believe, Martin Spence). It would be good for them to extend their work here to theatre.

[jack s/lfx]

I am currently at university studying towards a degree in technical theatre and here we are taught about union rates and the reasons behind them. When I start my career I would expect to be paid a decent rate as prescribed by BECTU or TMA just like actors would expect to be paid according to Equity and musicians to the MU rates otherwise a career in this industry would be unsustainable. I hope and would like to think that where I am studying has a fairly good reputation and my time spent here represents an investment to gaining skills that I need with a reflection on that in any future pay, but when I leave I don't expect to be gaining top high paying jobs and similarly I do not want to be and will not be working for peanuts either. I think I share this attitude with my course mates. As Zonino says Bectu are very effective in film and TV yet we are also governed by them but some people do not seem to share the same attitudes. The reason for this, whatever it may be needs to be addressed.

[LXbydesign]

Ok, so the minimum wage for a person aged 18+ is £5.93.

 

This job is paying £25 'per show' correct? So if the call time IN TOTAL from leaving your house to getting back to it was 4 hours, then it would work out at £6.25ph.

 

So, in theory, you could say that the pay is ABOVE the NMW, much to the dismay of some - this is perfectly valid.

 

However, the £50 for rehearsal week is a joke and I also suspect that you would more likely be working a full day on tour dates. Problem is though, I cant see this kind of situation changing. On one side of the coin, people will be up in arms and moaning about it and trying to put the situation right - as in, decent pay for a particular skilled job, while on the flipside, there will always be some lowering themselves and working for this rate.

 

I actually get really fed up sometimes with the attidude in performing arts with the 'we're doing it for the love' ethos. What cr*p.

 

Would you expect someone to operate a till in Waitrose for rubbish money because they're doing it 'for the love'? No.

 

Sure, its good to enjoy what you do but thats not a reason to exploit peoples passion in any particular field.

 

And then to add insult to injury, the advert dangles a carrot by offering a £50 bonus (whooopee) if the contract is forfilled subject to conditions. Well, if I was stupid enough to take on this job in the first place - id straight away be taking pictures of the mentioned equipment as condtion found at start of contract and being very objective as to its safekeeping inbtween gigs. I would be very surprised if the person ever got that £50 'bonus'.

 

So, Kate - I do hope you find someone suitable for the job. Monkeys work for peanuts. Maybe you could try recruiting at London Zoo.

 

Regards,

 

Dom

[Andrew C]

This job is paying £25 'per show' correct? So if the call time IN TOTAL from leaving your house to getting back to it was 4 hours, then it would work out at £6.25ph.

Wow! Do you get paid for your travelling time... Most of us don't, I'd be getting an extra hour and a half per day. OK, I'll give you that it may be different on tour, as in this particular case.

 

And further, some people do work for less than they could get elsewhere because they enjoy the job that they do. There is more to life than money! (Not agreeing with paying a pittance btw)

[ramdram]

Ref #28

 

(NB this is a heads up for those who REALLY might be considering covering their backs ref condition of kit.)

 

Word to the wise...you would be "sensible" to do a written inventory of the kit and get it signed by the person you get it from.

 

IF you take photos then make sure you take Polaroids, and get them signed too. The reason being that digital pics are easily altered and I gather the courts do not accept them as evidence for this reason.