could conduit be cable protection against Heavy-handed builders

[back_ache]

We are having problems on some of our install jobs where heavy-handed builders have been damaging our signal and speaker cables in a number of interesting ways , the cables are put in during the early part of a job and we return toward the end of the job to install(it isn't easy or even sometimes possible to cable at install time).

 

We can't be on site all the time between these times to keep an eye on them and discussions with customers and project managers are falling on deaf ears.

 

I was wondering whether it would make more sense for us to instead put in some kind of flexible conduits with a cord in them, and only pull the cables through when we return, it would also to a certain extent be good for future-proofing.

 

Is this a good or bad idea?

 

What are your experiences, would this work or would it push costs up unreasonably?

 

If we ran a larger diameter conduit between equipment "rooms" between floors could that be an issue for fire protection?

 

What's a suitable conduit products for what we want to do, we run loudspeaker, twisted-pair and screened cables?

 

Neil

[MarkPAman]

Oh look - there's already a nice bit of conduit where I want to run my cable - I'll use that!

[back_ache]

Oh look - there's already a nice bit of conduit where I want to run my cable - I'll use that! :)

 

** laughs out loud **! with the builders and sparkys we seem to get on our sites, there is very real possibility of that happening!

[MarkPAman]

I've had somebody use my signal cable to pull their cat5 (or whatever) through. Found mine in a skip still taped to a short piece of theirs. It was tempting to reverse the process, but theirs was already connected to an alarm control panel so I though best not to touch it. My boss then had "a word of two" on the phone with the alarm company, who up to that point had been the suppliers to our warehouse!

[Brian]

What sort of buildings are we talking about here?

[Robin D]

If we ran a larger diameter conduit between equipment "rooms" between floors could that be an issue for fire protection?

There are clear regulations to cover this, but basically as long as the duct itself is fire and smoke screened to the wall, ceiling, floors of the rooms its passing through, and its made of an approved fire retarding material, it OK. Hence you will often see 'risers' in building carrying many different but segregated services covered in by a thick ply or other board that can be unscrewed if required. If you ever unscrew any of these, you must reseal all the joints against smoke ingress and maintain the fire break.

[bruce]

On most of the major building projects I work on, you'll have lots of different contractors installing cabling - electricians, data, av, fire alarms etc etc.

 

The usual recipe would involve the "main" contractor - typically the electrical - installing ALL of the conduit, tray and containment. Indeed, in many cases when access is awkward, the electrical contractor will also pull in the AV (etc) cables, and leave it to the specialists for termination.

[Robin D]

My experience precisely Bruce.

[Bobbsy]

+1 for Bruce and Robin's experience.

 

It's pretty common to have the main or electrical contractor prepare the cable ways and install conduit, tray etc. then work out who pulls what and who terminates it.

 

Bob

[kerry davies]

Used to do lots of stuff in Walsall Conduit including in Walsall depots. Also used to get cables chopped off by, mostly, plasterers etc. Whenever this occurred the costs of replacement and making good after we had replaced the cables used to stimulate 'discussion' between clerk of works and guilty parties. If they pay, they take notice.

 

Using conduit as an add-on is never very satisfactory and it should be designed in from scratch. Risers between floors require fire-stop, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestop, as do break-outs into rooms and corridors etc. If the job necessitates these wiring solutions it should be down to the architect to sort out. Conduit which has not been reserved for specific use WILL be used by comms, fire-alarm, sparks and others.

 

There is nothing stopping you installing suitable conduit but the period between first-fix/second-fix will probably result in just as many problems as you experience today. Charge them handsomely and it may stop or they will use Bruce-like solutions and install them for you. Proper ducting/conduit is not cheap and often much more labour-intensive.

[back_ache]

We have tried having electricians pull cable but have repeatedly found our instructions misunderstood or completely ignored, so we have reverted now to doing it ourselves.

 

I would like to say the problem is just restricted to the market segment my company is in, but in a previous job where I set-up architectural lighting I would find lots of creative misinterpretations of typed instructions and diagrams, I worked with everyone from the largest contractors to one-man bands.

 

One idea is to ask them to run the conduit for us, as putting in single runs from each point to the equipment "room" shouldn't leave much room for misunderstanding...

[lightsource]

We can't be on site all the time between these times to keep an eye on them and discussions with customers and project managers are falling on deaf ears.

 

Neil

 

That is something that should never be allowed to happen, and it's no way of doing business at a professional level.

 

Communication must be the first priority, so get the deaf ears (for whatever the reason) sorted.

[Solstace]

I agree in principle, but if only it were that easy, Lightsource!

 

In my day-job, if I withdrew business from every contractor who got something quite creatively wrong despite clear instructions to the contrary, I'd have nobody left to supply or do the work that needs doing! My current compromise is to simply make time to have *someone* from our end supervising the contractors, or just take the extra time penalty and do the job in-house. Much easier, and much friendlier for the contractors too.

 

YMMV.

[Bobbsy]

Solstace, I'm afraid I'm with Lightsource on this one. This sort of thing simply should not happen on any professional job. Yes, there are occasional mistakes--but so long as the contracts also specify the financial responsibilities for such errors there is great incentive to be careful. I've project managed quite a few big jobs and this sort of thing has rarely been an issue.

 

Bob

[ChairmanJim]

Solstace, I'm afraid I'm with Lightsource on this one. This sort of thing simply should not happen on any professional job. Yes, there are occasional mistakes--but so long as the contracts also specify the financial responsibilities for such errors there is great incentive to be careful. I've project managed quite a few big jobs and this sort of thing has rarely been an issue.

 

Bob

 

You don't PM in the UK then! :)

 

I'd echo what Bruce and others have said. If possible, push it onto the main contractor to install the cabling/tray/conduit etc wherever possible. You may find that a lot of them now are reluctant to take it on, because of errors etc in install works that you mentioned. Some main contractors now won't even install secondary containment from their traywork because of this very reason.

 

If you do manage to get them to install it for you, get the construction drawings plotted with your cable runs and get them formally issued. Follow up everything that you discuss on site with an e-mail and take photos if there are any areas affected.

 

If you install the cables yourself (depending on the size of job, many will stipulate tray/containment anyway) take photos of the areas and get a sign-off sheet filled in by the electrical foreman/PM for the job. Then, if there are any problems when it comes to second fix, you have it documented. Again, follow up everything with e-mails, using the motto "if it can't be read, it hasn't been said".

 

A lot of construction now has turned into a blame game. Basically, the main contractor bids the job with a ridiculous timescale and cost, gambling that they can have variations to the contract which will buy them the time and money they need for the job in the first place. If you're caught holding the ball when the music stops, you'll get the blame and if you're lucky will get a large helping of LD's as well!