Mixing & Processing for a Live Pit Orchestra?

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Hi guys,

 

Please bear with me while I try and explain this!

 

In the past, when creating orchestral click tracks (sample based) for musicals, I have always gone down the road of traditional orchestral imaging, using convolution reverbs, imagers, and Haas delays for placing each instrument in the stereo (or occasionally, surround) field, and going for an almost film score-ish sound.

 

This sounds - in most instances - great. The problem for me is, it sounds *too* great. Pit orchestras tnd not to sound like they are playing on the ToddAO scoring stage with Briscati reverb tails. They sound (and I mean this in the nicest possible way to all the sound designers out there) much more 'rough around the edges'.

 

For my panto clicks this year, I would like to try and duplicate the sound of a pit orchestra (we are a glorious 3 piece! Me as MD/Keys, a drummer, and a guitar), as if I had a 30 piece in the pit (ha!). This is partly sample selection - I will be going for closer mic'd, more intimate sample sounds. But it's also to do with the mix.

 

So! Can I ask you lovely people who have far more experience mixing pit bands than myself: what is the process of mixing a live pit orchestra? I know that, on the larger shows certainly, most instruments have their own mic, which would give you almost complete separation of instruments. How do you go about the imaging and placement? Is it purely 'pan', or do you actually use Hass processors and early reflection generators? What about the mix? Even on digital desks, I've noticed that the levels tend to be 'set and forget' (aside from solos and other stand out moments).

 

It seems to all be much 'simpler' (for want of a better word) than the film music world, which is my only frame of reference...

 

Any advice as to what the process is would be muchly appreciated!

 

Many thanks,

 

Martin

[paulears]

I'm not really sure why you would wish to add depth in this way? Width alone seems to work for me. Width is also less than it could be. A pit band or orchestra are there to support the cast, as so in my humble view, they need to sound real and balanced in level terms against what's going on, on-stage. My drums will be hardly stereo at all, and panned just off centre, where the drummer actually is. The other instruments are spread out to broadly match any direct sound the audience hear. The conflict between real location and any form of artificial distance isn't strong enough to make any form of delay worthwhile. Especially so because the damn pit is so loud, that separation is minimal anyway. I just need the band louder. If there are tracks to contend with, I'd like them recorded dry giving the option of making them match a local issue - not something selected in the studio. I'd like to think it's always worked ok - doing my usual thing of sitting in as many places as possible and listening, I'm happy the sound designer has got it right. Certainly the kind of comments I make never seem to revolve around the band mix, more the artistes battle to do the music justice!

[J Pearce]

I'd agree with Paul. Mixing live I tend to go for transparency, with minimal panning designed to recreate/reinforce the natural aural location of the source. I'll use compression and EQ to achieve a sound that works well and fits with the vocals, but not to the extent that I would if I was mixing a CD.

 

The two are very different, a CD is more of an open artform, whereas as typically speaking, live work is reinforcing the acoustic output of the band.

 

(However I know our upcoming production at work will have effects, compression and hard panning all over the place, but Rent isn't a panto!).

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

Paul - the point is that I DON'T want to add depth in this case . I always have done in the past, because I've always done clicks the same way that I've done orchestral mockups - with a lot of imaging and depth. This time, I want it to sound like a pit of musicians, not a film cue... So I'm interested to hear that it's basically pan, width, EQ, and compression.

 

The difficulty, as ever, with panto is that there are so many different styles of music to contend with - from Hairspray to classical to heavy rock to Les Mis to Josh Groban! And there are some Rent-esque cues in it as well. I'll be using a digital setup so the effects and channel parameters can all vary per cue on the "Go" button.

 

In my case, it will (with the exception of cymbals and - very occasionally for the panto 'FX' - a live kick and snare) be a silent pit. We're monitoring on cans, and everything is electronic. So hopefully band volume won't be a problem.

 

And yes, I won't print the reverb onto the track stems :)

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[AndyW69]

Why not consider using a second PA or monitors in the pit playing the tracks, you could still add some of the mix to FOH, it would seem like the sound was coming from the pit. I spent an afternoon at the theatre royal drury lane a year or so ago, the sound engineer for oliver said initially they had a closed pit and close miked the orchestra (Oliver), it soon became obvious it sounded to perfect, they opend the front of the pit to allow some natural leakage, improved things apparently

 

Andy

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks Andy - that's definitely something worth trying. Need to be careful though - Drury Lane is a big house to fill (I played keys on Miss Saigon there a few times), whereas panto in Kettering is about 550 seats! At least with a silent pit we will have control how much "spill" there is.

 

Back on the tracks, I found some good theatre IRs in the Altiverb library - they keep the sound relatively dry and 'theatrical' whilst adding a bit of depth to it. I'm going to mix down to several stereo stems - strings, brass, woodwind, percussion, guitars, drums, bass, keys - to give some flexibility once I'm in the venue as regards width and panning of sections.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[AndyW69]

I always feel a silent pit or stage can be a bit sterile, the other benefit of the process is some separation of the vocals and the orchestra allowing the FOH rig to not work so hard. If you want to create a genuine live panto type sound I'd definately have some live music coming from the pit

 

Andy

[paulears]

I'm certain that although in principal I like the idea of a silent pit and no produced sound from the point of view that you'd have total control, with the band I work with for panto each year, there's no way this would work. To isolated and unless you have a clever system like the Roland, getting a mix for each person would be trouble - they constantly change their own playing volume to suit what their ears tell them - and I just can't see them willing to take the chance, or the production company to foot the bill, or the sound op to worry about proper balanced and reliable levels to the pit without a muso operated system - and even this, for some of them would be too complicated. The percussionist hates wearing headphones, which he has to for click, because it stops him tuning properly - bass tuning on headphones is tricky.

[Bobbsy]

Just a note that I've used the "two PA" trick a number of times in theatres as small as about 200 seats and it works very well indeed. Having a small PA in the pit or adjacent to the band (I once did it with an on-stage band) give very nice directional cues about where the music is coming from. No so much in your case, but it also means that the "live" sound from acoustic instruments is coming from the same place as the electronic stuff.

 

Another advantage is in EQing--if the main FOH is mainly for vocals you can set this up for best intelligibility and least feedback and do the band PA to optimise that as well. I believe Dave Rat took the same idea to a high-end, expensive conclusion on the Red Hot Chilli Peppers tour by flying two discrete V-dosc systems, one for vocals and one for the instruments.

 

Anyhow, in my more cost effective experience, it works well indeed.

 

 

Bob

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks guys! Apologies for the delay in replying - I've been mulling over how best to achieve the sound that I want.

 

I think I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of the 'live' feel for more control over the sound. I really like the idea of having a PA system actually in the pit, with only a little into the house system. I'll look into that.

 

getting a mix for each person would be trouble - they constantly change their own playing volume to suit what their ears tell them - and I just can't see them willing to take the chance, or the production company to foot the bill, or the sound op to worry about proper balanced and reliable levels to the pit without a muso operated system

 

All the equipment is mine :wacko: Not the production company's. The band and tracks are being submixed down in the pit (on dual MixWiz 16/2's). A happy side effect of this is that the 3 of us will be able to have our own (controllable) monitor mixes. Granted, Avioms for each of us would be ideal, but back in the real world of my credit card we'll have to make do with the MixWiz Auxes!

 

The percussionist hates wearing headphones, which he has to for click, because it stops him tuning properly - bass tuning on headphones is tricky.

 

Rich - my drummer - has just come off the Joseph tour, and has been on headphones for 3 years (they use V-Drums. I'm using a PC running Superior Drummer 2)! Oh to have the budget for a separate percussionist!!! :blink: It's all on track. As is the bass guitar...

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[AndyW69]

I use a software mixer www.softwareaudioconsole.com , it allows upto 24 personal monitor mixes to be controlled if needed upto 24 small netbooks can be added to control individual mixes, much cheaper than the alternatives, fully scaleable upto 72 stereo inputs and vst's can be used on all channels, op's etc

 

Andy - call me if you want a chat about it 07782 154547

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks Andy. I will take you up on that at the weekend when things are a little calmer here (it will be a French number calling you!). I was looking at SAC, but I needed something that would also host VST instruments as well as effects.

 

Just to confirm my original question (although it all sort of ties in) - imaging and processing for live pit orchestras generally comprises of:

- EQ

- Compression (and dynamics)

- Pan

- Reverb (+ any other effects needed like delay etc.)

 

And not 'special' (bad word, but best I can do at the moment) imaging and placement processing like Haas delay and early reflections?

 

Cheers!

 

Martin