What insurance do I need and DO I need insurance?

[jjones]

Hi all,

I setup audio and lighting equipment around local clubs and bars. So far Ive just worked for mates, although now Im starting to charge for doing this and last night someone told me they would only employ me if I had liability insurance. I presume I do need liability insurance (by law?) - are there any other insurances I need? Indemnity for example? Do I use a broker or go direct? Do I pick someone local or doesn't it matter? I have so many questions to ask!

Thanks

[Dodgecaliber]

It would be incredibly stupid to not have insurance. You may be able to insure yourself as more of a DJ than anything else.

 

It doesn't matter who you get insurance through or where, however I would suggest a broker - They are often cheaper.

 

PLI insurance is a must, but you may want to have your kit covered too.

 

 

Dodge

 

 

 

P.s Update your profile!

[Paul TC]

I have so many questions to ask!

Thanks

Have a look at this topic on Blue Room

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?show...c=498&st=15

 

Use the search function top right of the page. This has been covered many times by people on here, under the PLI and other types of insurance.

[lightsource]

Hi all,

I setup audio and lighting equipment around local clubs and bars. So far Ive just worked for mates.

 

It doesn't really matter who you did it for, it's the fact you did it in the first place!

 

Public Liability Insurance, is a must, as it helps to protect you from claims of neglegence should a situation arise where a claim may need to be made.

 

Notice I said 'Helps', there's no guarantee that you will win a claim against you, but the quality of your insurance company may have the final say.

 

Nothing is black and white though, issues such as competence (to do the job) Pat testing of your equipment , are both factors that need to be considered.........Do you have a risk assesment policy for what you do?

 

If up against a Judge, in court, what would your comments be on things like 'The safe working practices employed?'

 

These are questions you should have answers for, but back to your original question:

 

Insurance Companies:

 

Musicguard:

http://www.musicguard.co.uk/home.asp?affid=57984

 

Doodson:

http://www.doodsonbg.com/entertainment/

 

The latter is proabably your best bet, as they are more specialist.

 

£2 Million PLI is a bit basic, you really need to look at £5 Million, and possibly above.

 

As far as Indemnity insurance goes, for what you say you're doing, this should not be required.

 

For PLI, you're better off looking at a company that specialises in the Entertainment Industry, as most private (domestic) brokers won't entertain (forgive the pun) what you do.

 

Work with Insurers that work in the Industry, who understand what you do, and can advise you with knowledge of Industry you work in.

[dwents]

As mentioned before

The quality of the insurance company will only ever be found out in a claim?

Google the name of whatever company you intend using as people will always post on forums when they feel they have been ripped off.

 

Over the years I have used brokers who have got me a good price beacuse they used a company who didnt really understand the business maybe aswell as another.

 

Most policy's will say the equipment will only be insured if kept in a locked room when not in use so imagine you have a two day hire in a hotel function room which over night is locked you'd assume that this would be fine except the cleaner came in at 5am unlocked the room and then left at seven leaving the room open as conference team are due in any time soon.

somewhen in this time your amp gets stolen?

 

It would be very easy for the insurance company to say not covered but a specialist company would understand you did everything in your power to make sure it was safe.

 

the difference between insurance companies varies so I would ask around PLASA next week in london would be a good start

[paulears]

The usual thing with insurance that is 'optional' is to consider if something nasty happens, can you pay it out of your own funds. So insurance against stolen items could be expensive, and you could consider the risk low. However, looking at just the TV "I slipped on some water that shouldn't have been there..." ads, then if you are not an employee, and it was you who spilled the water - could you afford the risk of a claim?

 

On top of this, you will eventually find that you might get a job that requires you to file a copy of your insurance, just to get on site. If you do installs where proper, big, builders are doing the job - then to get on site while they are still there, you will need PLI - possibly 10 million, plus safety equipment and hi-vis jacket.

 

You can get by without any insurance at all - there's no legal requirement. You just need to assess if this is wise - for you!

[Pete McCrea]

You can get by without any insurance at all - there's no legal requirement. You just need to assess if this is wise - for you!

 

Though our insurers require that all sub contractors are covered by their own PLI IIRC. So our policy is that we only use Sub Contract Labour (aka 'freelancers') who can demonstrate this. Without it you'd have to come on the payroll. I believe many of the larger lighting companies now require people to be LTD companies with their own pLI to ensure that in the eyes of the HMRC they are truly not an employee, and that they have their own PLI etc.

 

Therefore not having PLI, would possibly make getting work with some companies quite hard work....

[paulears]

If that's true Pete, it's daft - because all it does is shift liability. They contract XYZ lighting Ltd, and then the person must be an employee again - but of XYZ lighting Ltd. The person doing the work will then be covered by the companies insurance, and isn't freelance. So if big companies insist on this, then freelancers as a whole can't work for them.

 

There is no current advantage for someone like me being an employee of my own ltd company - this tax advantage went away a few years ago, and currently a sole trader status is better. Any idea which lighting companies are implementing this daft process?

[lightsource]

Let's not forget what the OP was asking.

 

He is stating he sets up gear in clubs and bars, and has not once mentioned install work, or anything else, so I think the sub-contract comments are a little outside of the OP's insurance requirements.

[dwents]

If that's true Pete, it's daft - because all it does is shift liability. They contract XYZ lighting Ltd, and then the person must be an employee again - but of XYZ lighting Ltd. The person doing the work will then be covered by the companies insurance, and isn't freelance. So if big companies insist on this, then freelancers as a whole can't work for them.

 

There is no current advantage for someone like me being an employee of my own ltd company - this tax advantage went away a few years ago, and currently a sole trader status is better. Any idea which lighting companies are implementing this daft process?

 

 

The big problem is with HMRC :- If you as an big lighting company you use a sub contractor who's self employed and after the job he invoices you as say Fred Blogs t/a up a ladder rigging has his own insurance etc but he does say two days a week for you and seeks no other work you become an employer who should be responsible for his tax and Ni etc because you generate all his work

 

This is why they have a different scheme in the building trades to make it clearer

 

If you use a ltd company rather than sole trader you take away this as the ltd company can decide who to use within its own ranks for a given job if they choose to use a sole tarder then so be it but it becomes the duty of the second ltd company not the first for the tax responsability of the man climbing the ladder. again off OP question but wanted to reply

[Pete McCrea]

If that's true Pete, it's daft - because all it does is shift liability.

Yeap. But if you've been investigated by HMRC, and judgement issued that you a large sum of money because HMRC believe that you should have been deducting tax at source, then you do what you can to ensure this doesn't happen again. I'm led to believe this happened to 1 particular lighting company. It's not me that insists our sub contractors have their own PLI - it's my insurers.

 

Let's not forget what the OP was asking.

 

He is stating he sets up gear in clubs and bars, and has not once mentioned install work, or anything else, so I think the sub-contract comments are a little outside of the OP's insurance requirements.

 

I mean sub contract in terms of him being a properly self employed person, either as a sole trader or through his own LTD company**. He's either an employee, or self employed (or a mix of the two for different jobs).

 

It's that close line between employee and not. If he's doing lots of work for one company, and being told to come in at X time to do X task, and has no real business risk in what he's doing, then he may well be judged to be an employee. The usual Blue Room 'Freelance' rant really.

 

At that point he should be covered under the PLI of the people that he's working for. If he's a genuine self employed, then I would have thought that the company using his services will potentially require that he's got his own policy.

 

Alternatively he's doing it for beer money on the side of his usual full time employment. At that point the several hundred £ a year for PLI may well not be considered as 'worthwhile'.

 

**As a footnote: The other month, whilst applying for a loan, I stated I'm an employee of Production AV. It then came out that as I own the majority of Pro AV, the loan company still class me as self employed, even though I've been paid by 'it' for the last 4 years through the PAYE system. I wasn't expecting that.

[kerry davies]

It might not have been a lighting company as Pete says, but at least one trucking company in the touring rock side has caught a severe cold over PAYE and NI.

 

Insurance companies are making a fortune on events where there are many firms and individuals holding the same PLI policies and paying multiple premiums. There is no strict legal necessity for PLI but once one link in the chain holds PLI the insurer tries to force the issue and get everyone to pay premiums. Frustrating!

 

It happens that at PLASA today I picked up a leaflet for a new entertainment specialist insurance from http://www.precisionbroking.com that at first sight looks good.

 

I am biased as it is in association with the PSA, so please make up your own minds about it, but hire companies like Pete's should definitely check out the production services insurance.

 

For the OP, two others that have given me good service besides Doodson are Oval Insurance Group and Robertson-Taylor.

[Stan Hope-Streeter]

Insurance companies are making a fortune on events where there are many firms and individuals holding the same PLI policies and paying multiple premiums. There is no strict legal necessity for PLI but once one link in the chain holds PLI the insurer tries to force the issue and get everyone to pay premiums. Frustrating!

 

Yes, I have often wondered about this. Every possible "incident" is now covered by a whole chain of PLI insurance policies. Logically, only one is necessary.

 

But this practice means that the insurers are able to make loadsamoney by charging each person in the chain for a premium. Then if a claim is made, they all sue each other, with most of the money going to their lawyers.

 

Really the whole thing is a scam - just another way to generate profits for the financial services industry and bonuses for City boys.

 

However to stay on topic, over the last 30 years I have used Robertson Taylor, Torribles, and Doodsons. I have swapped around a few times depending on who provided the most competitive quote. Quite often the price differences have been significant, usually depending on who had the biggest price increase over the previous year. Athough all three companies have high reputations, I have never made a claim so I still don't know if the cover is worth the paper it's written on. And I hope I never will...