Vocal Monitoring

[MIKE900]

My band use the following set up for vocal monitoring this works reasonably well but I just want to make sure I'm making best use of everything. We use aux send from Alessis multimix desk through Behringer ultragrph pro eq, into amp then from amp into 2 X12 200W wedges. My query, I have the aux send dial from each vocal channel set at about 11o'clock, the amp is set about half way. For more volume at wedges should I boost the aux send at the desk or boost the input channel gain or master vol on monitor amp. Is it better to keep the aux down and drive the amp or the other way?

 

Any comments/ advise/

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Boltonguy]

Can you let us know what your amp is (rating). Thanks. Always best to you the amp itself to increase volume rather then risk a distorted sound coming from the desk to the amp.

[Ynot]

Not being primarily a noise boy, BUT my logical assessment of the last response suggests that didn't sound quite the best way...

Surely it's best if the system as a whole is set up such that it delivers maximum 'punch' to the speakers whilst still retaining decent quality with the amp level control being set fairly high (certainly more than half-way)...

 

That way you control the level being sent to it by the aux send from the desk - where you can also SEE at a glance where it's sitting.

 

Of course, I could be wrong...

[djtom29]

My thoughts are, if you drive your amp high, you increase the chance of "bad sound" (noise, hums, e.t.c) coming through your system, as your level will be lower, and so amplify the noise more, if you drive the auxes/master faders harder and keep your amps lower, you have a much 'louder' input signal of SOUND rather than noise, so the system SHOULD sound cleaner. Of course if you set up your system correctly then you shouldn’t have any noise on it (or at least a minimum amount!). That said, watch the levels on the desk/eq, as the more you drive the output of the desk, in to the eq, or the eq in to the amp, the more chance of distortion. With properly spec’ed monitors/amps for your job you shouldn’t have any problems with having to drive in to distortion to get the level. I usually try and keep my outputs set to 0db and make up the extra gain on the individual channel auxes. My advice though is to try and find a decent method that works for you! Many an engineer have this discussion, do you drive amps or outputs more. its entirely down to personal preference, I prefer to drive my outputs to 0db and then nock level down on the amps, but that’s just me and my logic and experience working with bands/musicians

[paulfurze]

I'd set the Amp volume to full and control from the AUX send.

 

Running a power amp at less than full "can" lead to it running hot.

(Note that I said 'can' - it'll depend on the amp, before the BR members start slapping me! );)

[Just Some Bloke]

Of course, if we were talking FOH then practicalities would come into play here: your amps would often be at the stage end so if you needed to turn them up it would require a walk from where you are at the desk to where the amps are on-stage. Thus, setting the amps high (even to full) means you have full control of everything at the desk end - if it's not loud enough then tough cause there is no more! ;)

 

If you're working that way with FOH then it makes sense to work the same way with mons.

[Shez]

My take on this issue (and everyone does indeed have their own opinion on it) is as follows:

 

The vast majority of amps (and powered speakers) out there are stupidly sensitive - with the input attenuator fully clockwise (note that it's not a volume control), you'll achieve maximum output with somewhere between 2 & 4dBu input. (There are sensible amps out there with fixed 26dB gain amongst other schemes but they tend to be in a minority). When your desk can manage up to about +26dBu outputs, wasting that headroom by having to keep your outputs down to less than 0dBu seems daft to me.

 

I generally set up my amps so that they'll reach maximum output with ~12dBu inputs. That means knocking back the input attenuators a bit. Remember that you can always achieve maximum volume output even with the input controls wound right down - those controls simply set the input level at which that maximum output is achieved. (Some less well designed input stages may overload if this is taken to extremes but the principle is there.)

 

This means you can work with more sensible levels on the desk, send a much hotter signal down the multi, and generally keep your SNR as healthy as possible.

 

There are a few gotchas of course - if there's an LMS between desk outputs and amp inputs, the location of that (foh or on stage) can lead to a different way of working. And if some helpful soul decides to wind your amps all the way up, things can get messy...

 

I've worked that way for a number of years now; systems are always noticeably quieter when idle than when set up differently. Less of an issue for rock 'n' roll but as it's mostly theatre and acoustic music I work with, it's rather more important.

[Doug Siddons]

My 2p's, as the multimix has only one aux send with no master send ie its all done on the channel, if memory serves, and the Ultragraph has no output control, you have no option but to use the amps volume as the master volume control.

[MarkBarl]

Another 2p. As it sounds like you have a pretty set and go mix i.e. no engineer during gigs, it doesn't really matter which way round. Your biggest risk will be feedback. As long as you can get to something to turn it down if necessary then you're ok. Depending on the quality of your amp, cables, desk and how much hiss is in the system, you theoretically get a better signal to noise ratio with a hot output from the desk and then attenuate at the amp. (i.e. The noise or hiss in a system generally tends to be a fixed amount, the hotter the output from the desk the better the "Signal" to "Noise" ratio) Typically as mentioned when amps are remote from the desk, you would set the input at a level that you know if you drive fully with the desk isn't going to fry the speakers or clip the amp. As you will see from the replies that you have, although there are wrong ways to do it, there is no specific right way, just what works for you.

[MIKE900]

Thanks all, as I expected a lot of subjectivity! On another point we use one channel of the eq for monitoring, would you recomend leaving it flat and only use for feedback issues or any advise on general settings for male vocals.

Mike

[mkfs9]

Thanks all, as I expected a lot of subjectivity! On another point we use one channel of the eq for monitoring, would you recomend leaving it flat and only use for feedback issues or any advise on general settings for male vocals.

Mike

 

 

I tend to just pull down the lower end a bit say 80 hz and lower. you dont want any of that muddying up your sound.Then leave the rest flat if you have no problems.

[Doug Siddons]

My 2p's again (this is getting expensive!) pull everything below 100 Hz or even 150Hz out and anything above 10khz, q the rest to what sounds right, your next feedback band I would expect to be around 5-8khz depending on and I always pull around 315 out on the graph to make the speakers sound less boxy.

 

Simple Feedback Trainer is a useful tool for this and this frequency chart might be of use