Limiter issues

[mallyJJ87]

Just a bit of advice on system tuning if anyone has a spare few minutes?

 

I'm currently working in an outdoor venue, with a small- medium sized PA system (2 way behringer sub and mid/hi). There was a Behringer ultragraph pro being used for the monitor mix  (two monitors running from the same aux).  As the monitors are barely used (the mid/hi speakers are installed at the back of the stage!), I used the ultragraph Pro for FOH instead, and set the in built limiter to +6dB, as any higher, and with the masters up full on the desk, the amps begin to clip. 

 

 I have set the graphic so that there are no longer any feedback problems (or it is very rare considering the placement of the speakers), and so that it sounds as good as possible, but even with the system at full blast, the performers still want it louder.  With 4 singers on stage, and a backing track, the limiter is only just stopping the amps from clipping.  My reply was 'buy a louder system', but I'm  not entirely sure this went down well...

 

Also, my 'FOH' box, is actually a stone room a couple of meters to the left of the stage, which makes it difficult to monitor.

 

Is there anything else I can do? I am right in my approach?  Any advice would be very much welcome! Cheers.

[Ynot]

Is there anything else I can do? I am right in my approach? Any advice would be very much welcome! Cheers.

First observation (again from my limited noise experience) is why can the main PA speakers not be moved to the front of the stage?

That should - I'd suspect - improve the GBF factor immensely and also open the noise up a lot by not funnelling it through the tunnel of the stage...

[mallyJJ87]

 Moving the main pa speakers was one of my first suggestions, along with building a FOH hut so that I could accurately hear whats happening. The technician before me also suggested both of these things, but to no aveil. :** laughs out loud **:   Guess it costs money huh.

[ramdram]

Mally, it sounds as if you work in a very similar place to me...perpetual watch on the cash outgoings. This situation tho' can help to exercise the little grey cells in finding an acceptable solution without costing loads of cash.

 

Ref the comments above on moving the speakers to better positions, could you not persuade the "powers that be" to at least listen to the speakers...as they "SHOULD" be sited.

 

This might cost a bob or two in speaker cable and possibly new mounts if you are to get the speakers up and angled down onto the audience, so probably a good idea to research the necessary before you make your pitch.

 

With any luck the "elders" will be so impressed with your technical prowess, AND, your negotiating skills they might just buy into the new hardware requirements.

 

You can always "lard" the fact THEY made a shrewd decision...thus allowing them in future to make further shrewd decisions based on YOUR suggestions.

 

Lets hope they don't read BR, ** laughs out loud **.

[WooferHound]

You can get more volume if you reduce the low frequencies which suck the power out of the amplifiers. If you have equalizers then cut off the bass frequencies at 100hz or so, this will give you considerably more volume before clipping at the expense of a good low thump.

[Dave SA]

Or if your system is bi-amped cut off the lowest frequencies in relation to each ''band''.

 

For example cut up to 50hz from the sub, and the lowest frequencies your tops are capable of doing. A simple graphic should help you do this.

 

I am of course assuming you have a system with these components.

[dboomer]

I'm not sure what the +6 dB really means in reference to the entire system. But if you are limiting your mixer at +6 assuming it puts out +24 or so you are wasting a lot of SN ratio. Do your amps have built-in clip limiters? Most do and if so you should reset your gain structure and then adjust the limiter to kick in based of the continuous power rating of your speakers.

 

Now if you want to make the system "louder" you can back the compressor down and adjust the output level by the same amount which will result in a higher "average" level.

[mallyJJ87]

Thanks for all the great comments, they've been very helpful! Will look at altering the low pass filter on the crossover, and tweaking my gain structure, along with trying to convince the powers that be to move the main speakers. Will update soon, Thanks again everyone!