Brand new install

[Dodgecaliber]

Hi all,

 

I've been approached to manage quite a large install in a venue that is over 100 years old, but being totally renovated.

 

I've sat and thought of every little thing I would like to have, but I'd like to hear what kit others would want.

 

Your budget is high, but not massive (Over £80,000)

You've got a space for 500 seated

The stage is aprox 1m off the deck.

The lower seating is flat with the balcony seating on a tilt

The stage area has enough for at least 5 lx bars and plenty of wing space

Fly's are unknown at this time

The box is anywhere you wish

Sound is preferably point source due to FOH flying problems

You have an unlimited amount of power

You have an unlimited amount of time

Your dimmer room must go in the basement

Any console, lamps, amps, speakers etc

A projector able to throw out enough at 20m for a 'cinema'

Not loads of moving lights, a few would be nice - But I'd like to stick with old incan' lanterns

Unlimited number of ways

 

 

Exact sizes are unknown at this time and the venue will be used as a theatre/cinema/concert hall. Everything must be hard wired.

 

I am only asking what you would have if the above was given to you. So no posts about being vague with details!

 

I need to make the correct choices here, I can update once I know a lot more about the venue obviously, but once the job is done, I'll be moving in as the venue tech and I'd like to hear what others would have before I start picking out anything.

 

It's the first time I've been able to design my own venue essentially and I'd like to open it up for other folks suggestions of what equipment they would choose....

 

Dodge

[Ynot]

First obvious question: You say "the venue will be used as a theatre/cinema/concert hall" but any clarity on what type of usage? All professional companies? All am-dram? A mix of both? Weekly rep type or touring?

 

Next question: Or more of a statement... Would love to come up and help!! You're right - £80K is NOT a huge budget but spending even that amount can be hugely rewarding at the end of the project.

 

To give some scale, when we had to re-equip our venue - half the seating size of yours - about 5 years ago after the asbestos debacle, we spent around £75K (plus VAT) on probably less than you need. New LX and sound desk. follow spots, amps, effects units, comms, etc etc. All of our hardwired ETC dimmers were safe, but replaced 4 betapacks which were condemned. thinking back, though, the 75K also included 7 rows of auditorium seats and a fair bit of work on the bar area. I'd say the tech side of the budget was perhaps much lower at around £50K.

[Dodgecaliber]

It's going to be a mix of everything really. The local am-dram will put on performances a few times a year, the SYT (Scottish youth theatre) want to use the space for some reason too - Even though they just built a new place!

 

And believe me, help is needed!

 

Im also considering building up a crew to do the install rather than bringing in a company. I used to do installs for a living and im more than competent in experience and qualifications, but I don't know if it's sensible or how much money it's going to save.

 

Any ideas how much of a mark-up an installer would make on a job of this scale?

[DanHerbert]

By manage do they mean they expect you to do the installation or are you to liaise with getting quotations etc, if I were you, I'd invite companies to come and quote for the job, but ensure that you have a good specification for what you would like to achieve/include!

[congoblues]

Blimey... That's quite some question!

 

I'll start off by saying that having spent some money over the last few years on kit and parts of installation (I am currently sitting in the office while nice folks redo our house tabs) I would say that £80k isn't an especially high budget. It's amazing how easily you can spend on labour and VAT alone. This obviously depends on what you have to work with, ie; what can be updated/refurbished and what needs replacing entirely. Prioritise! For example, I would be looking at higher spec dimmers, cabling and facility panels over higher spec lanterns/moovers as it's obvious which would benefit the venue more long term.

 

Ynot is right to ask about usage - who will be using it and for what? This should determine many of your decisions. Moving lights, for example, are not much use if you're mostly showing films and hosting small/mid scale theatre. Go and look at some similar venues for ideas and talk to lots of people - theatres who have recently done or are doing similar projects and a good few companies - both one-stop shops and specific ones.

 

Take your time and have fun - it should be a very exciting project!

[Dodgecaliber]

By manage do they mean they expect you to do the installation or are you to liaise with getting quotations etc, if I were you, I'd invite companies to come and quote for the job, but ensure that you have a good specification for what you would like to achieve/include!

 

 

They want me to manage any install if done externally along with any quotations. However if it's done by myself and others it's all on my own (Obviously we would need to bring in a comany at some stage to load test and commission everything...)

[Brian]

I'm a bit confused about what your 80k is to be spent on.

 

Seating?

General Building Work?

Decoration?

Structural Building Work?

Electrical Supply

HVAC?

House Lighting?

Spaces Outside the Auditorium?

 

...or is it just for the stage technical installation?

 

 

And to give you an idea of how far (not) money goes...

 

about 7 years ago it cost £70k to do some basic building work and basic structural work and to install 7 fixed bars with dimmers.

[boatman]

It's possible that Ian Atherton at 888 Productions in Lenzie might be willing to take on some of this work. By the way, is this the Britannia Panopticon by any chance? A great opportunity to bring an old building back to life.

 

Oops, sorry put this reply in the wrong thread

[Dodgecaliber]

It's possible that Ian Atherton at 888 Productions in Lenzie might be willing to take on some of this work. By the way, is this the Britannia Panopticon by any chance? A great opportunity to bring an old building back to life.

 

Oops, sorry put this reply in the wrong thread

 

 

Almost but not quite :** laughs out loud **:

[Dodgecaliber]

For some reason this won't let me edit, so Im having to add a post.

 

Im looking for suggestions of makes and models here along with suggestions of ideas and tips that have worked well for you in the past.

 

I.e - Choose XYZ speakers and ABC dimmers....

[paulears]

Chris - this is totally daft! You say don't say you're being vague, just do a wish list???? If I was presented with the list as you've detailed it, before I waste a single minute, I'd start asking questions. You cannot do a proper job with this info, and it could go badly wrong.

 

We simply don't have anywhere near enough information. The venue data is so incomplete. The scale of the project is missing. It's just too vague to be useful at all.

 

With these kind of projects, you cannot do it this way. You need to have an interlinked system of plan A, B, C etc. The idea being that each one is workable, but has different price point/quality levels. So you perhaps aim for a d&b system, but when another area requires more share, you can drop down to the next workable system down.

 

Just picking a few at random

A projector able to throw out enough at 20m for a 'cinema' - this item alone could be a pair of ropey old Westrex units, but even if you could find a decent pair from a cinema closing down, with lenses you're talking a decent percentage of the budget.

 

The stage area has enough for at least 5 lx bars and plenty of wing space and Fly's are unknown at this time - so how can we even guess if we don't know if the price needs to include just the bars or bars and suspensions?

 

Your dimmer room must go in the basement - so we're talking considerable cable runs of both distribution and supply?

 

80K to do some additions sounds fine, but 80K to do the job seems to suggest some serious compromises. Unless you intend to do much of the work yourself, labour costs alone will eat the budget up. Installing 70-80 ways of dimming, in terms of electrician time, starting from scratch could easily eat up two people for at least a couple of weeks, perhaps even more if the runs to the outlets are tricky. Taking a couple of unemployed sparks on would probably be the cheapest way - getting a contractor in is going to be far too expensive in terms of percentage of the budget.

[StevieR]

80k is not a lot of money at all for what appears to be a complete technical refit. At this stage I would look at creating an outline specification that can be put out to some companies to quote for. Don't get too tied up in makes and models at this time as the budget may force you to make compromises in this respect.

 

One word of advice with regards to any project is to take plenty of time in the planning stage and ensure that the specification for the works is correct. Then, once the work is underway DONT CHANGE ANYTHING - as this will have financial consequences.

 

Feel free to PM me though if you are looking for recommendations - we're only an M8 journey away.

 

Steve

[Bobbsy]

Well, I'm going to talk about the sound side (since that's what I know) but I daresay similar ideas could apply to other aspects.

 

What I would NOT do is go in with a firm wishlist. Instead, I'd spec what I want to achieve and approach as many different suppliers as I can find. My reason for this is that: A) you can often maximise discounts by getting everything from one place, and B) different suppliers can offer maximum discounts on different lines.

 

A second advantage of doing it this way is that you very quickly get an idea of which suppliers put some thought into things and which just trot out a standard list of the gear they make the most money on.

 

As an example, instead of specifying specific brands and models of speaker and amp, I'd say something like:

 

"The main auditorium is 20 metres wide x 30 metres long x 25 metres high, seating 500 people in seating raked at a 15 degree angle. We require a FOH system that can cover all seats in a live theatrical performance at a maximum SPL (A weighted) of 105dB, 60Hz to 18kHz, plus or minus 6dB through the whole hall. Flying systems are not an option due to structural problems; speakers must be a L/R system, wall mounted either side of the stage on suitable brackets. Amplifiers must be located in XXX location. Please include all wiring in any quote."

 

Similarly, for the mixer, specify the needed channels and outputs, any subgroups you want, perhaps things like "four band EQ with at least two swept" etc.etc. I might go as far as to say "Allen and Heath, Soundcraft, Yamaha or other manufacturers by agreement" or similar.

 

That's just a flavour--the actual spec for sound would probably run several pages and go into pretty great detail.

 

As I say, doing it this way can often get you the best prices (if you're not tied to specific gear) and also give you a good way to see the skills and effort suppliers bring to bear.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bob

[Dodgecaliber]

Guys, Im not asking you to spec the entire venue.

 

What im looking for is suggestions of:

 

Why don't you get some touch panels?

You should try XYZ it works really well in our venue

We tried this and it saves tons of time

 

Im looking for some suggestions and ideas that may have worked for you in your venue. £80k - £100k needs to include everything. From suspension to fuses.

 

Sorry if im being confusing.

 

Dodge

[paulears]

I don't think we can do this. Personally, I think you might be better to install minimum permanent electrics and perhaps consider something like socapex distribution, so then you could have kit where it's needed, once you work out what the actual need is.

 

You can't really afford to have loads of dimmers connected to nothing, so if you have a play in that needs lots of front light, you move the dimmer outlets to FOH, and can quickly move them all back to stage when a music show comes in that needs more on stage circuits.

 

Same thing with the audio - something modular makes far more sense. Maybe even diverting some budget to suspension to make changes quicker. With a full programme and low budget, you need to consider spending on core items and getting maximum usage.

 

Touch panels??? For what, exactly? This kind of thing is the icing - you need to get the cake ingredients sorted first.

 

Forgive me - but you seem really confused at the basics of project management.

 

What exactly do you need? You MUST sort this one out before you start looking at detail.

 

If it was me, I'd get the mechanical engineers to give you a ballpark figure for the structural stuff. How much will X amount of support cost - then you can work out how much you can afford, leaving you enough budget to buy things to hang?

 

How about trying to work to riders for your intended programme?

 

There are so many variables that it's simply silly to start looking at fine detail at this point.