sound limiters

[mkfs9]

As a function band we play some venues with the sound cut off limiters. A nightmare in most cases. Some friend of ours have had equipment damaged by the sudden off on switching. our bass and guitarist both use valve amps Mesa boogie 400+ and a marshall anniversary combo. We use qsc amps for the Pa. Any thoughts or tips on this party pooping system.Spent all last night watching the lights with a finger on the master slider. The snare was the culprit last night,not even miked up.bass and vocals ok really.

[Doug Siddons]

The obvious answer is not to play too loud! But speaking from experience take a long extension with you and try and sneakily find the sockets which are out of the limiters circuits.

[bruce]

Any thoughts or tips on this party pooping system.

 

Don't play so loud?

 

I'm not being facetious - it's a serious comment. The limiters are there for a reason - probably to comply with licensing conditions, perhaps following complaints from the neighbours. If you're tripping it, you're too loud for the venue. Any attempt to bypass the limiter could result in the venue losing it's license.

 

I appreciate what you're saying about the snare not being miked. Any drummer can play very loud, but only a talented one can temper it to "loud enough". :D

[mkfs9]

Any thoughts or tips on this party pooping system.

 

Don't play so loud?

 

I'm not being facetious - it's a serious comment. The limiters are there for a reason - probably to comply with licensing conditions, perhaps following complaints from the neighbours. If you're tripping it, you're too loud for the venue. Any attempt to bypass the limiter could result in the venue losing it's license.

 

I appreciate what you're saying about the snare not being miked. Any drummer can play very loud, but only a talented one can temper it to "loud enough". :D

 

Thanx for the obvious comments. we were in a marquee last night no reflections from walls or ceiling. trust me we were not loud at all. A disco would have been ok as our break music was easily tammed. They just dont let a band play without constantly holding back and audiance participation songs are a deffinate no go.We have played venues where the cheering off the crowd peaked the systems out, with the band not even playing. I think the pick up mike last night must have been right above the drummer we could not see it anywhere.

[bruce]

The "disco being fine" comment probably reflects the directionality of your PA speakers, and the lack-of-directionality of the drums - maybe the mic was behind the PA..

 

But I stand by what I said earlier. If it trips, it's louder than allowed by the license. Whether you, or I, or the audience think it's too loud is irrelevant.

[mkfs9]

We did not trip it,but the whole night was spent stairing at it and holding back on the chorus and songs that have a build up. We are more concerned about damage to equipment.we have known of damage caused by these coming back on when all is turned up.

[Solstace]

Hmm. (Cheque in the post, Ynot, if I'm thinking of the right person?)

 

Been on both sides of the fence on this one.

 

Sorry, but as someone who is both a sound engineer and a resident who has suffered some consistent noise nuisance in the recent past,

I must say that when trying to book a loud band into a venue with such low limits, then the band should have (been) refused the gig. Bypassing the limiters etc might sound like fun, but can and does make some people's lives a misery. Usually the limiter is there for a reason, and that reason isn't to simply stop you having fun. I've only ever encountered them being placed to make sure that Mrs Jones in the house (sometimes not so) nearby can sleep the night through. If you believe the limiter to be poorly or incorrectly implemented, then by all means take this up with the venue and/or the local council.

 

Pick two of: a) play more quietly, b) get into venues without such low SPL limits, c) If you must, get more suitable equipment capable of withstanding such power abuse.

 

I love a great gig, but I don't want to leave it feeling like someone's just let off a 9mm handgun right next to me. (Yowsers that hurts without hearing protection!) Furthermore, whenever I get home I don't want to have to turn up the telly (possibly creating a noise nuisance in itself) or be unable to sleep when I need to just 'coz it's Saturday night again and Disco Dave™, Karaoke Kat™ and their mates want to belt out some old classics down the ol' Dog n' Duck.

 

Sorry if I'm being a party-pooper. Normal (happy) service to be resumed asap. Here endeth today's rant.

[mkfs9]

This was a wedding, not a rock concert type gig. we are a a funtion band and play weddings almost every week. When people in nearby houses complain its usually the thump thump thing they hear, not vocals or guitar. This particular system seemed to pick the drums snare more than anything else. You cant pick wedding venues you play where they have decided to have there reception. Dont know about the limmiters untill we get there.

[Simon Lewis]

I've worked as a consultant measuring the environmental noise from places of entertainment, as an installer supplying noise 'cut off systems' and as an engineer trying to keep a band below the trigger point.

 

All aspects represent real problems:

 

As Solstace says, no-one wants to be kept awake by a loud band or disco, and Local Councils are bound by the Environmental Protection Act 1990 to investigate complaints. If a noise limiter has been fitted, it is quite possible that this is due to past complaints, and is part of the control measures instigated to ensure a reduction in noise nuisance.

 

The installation can be problematic - correct positioning of the microphone, correct selection of A or Z weighting (should be A, but the EHO would love to use Z!), correct setting of the threshold, ensuring that the unit isn't tampered with or the microphone sabotaged, problems with cutting power to equipment etc.

In some installs we switched power to the house lights, so they came on full, (along with a fairly bright warning light) as an alternative to cutting the band's power.

 

As a sound engineer, you have to find the trigger point and keep the band to below that level. Tempting though it is to power them from a non "protected" mains outlet, it does become obvious when the limiter has tripped and the band are still playing. Perhaps the introduction of an "unplugged" set could be the way forward?!

 

Sound isolation is hard to do properly, so ultimately it's a case of putting on the gigs in venues that are suitable for live music.

 

Simon

[themadhippy]

so ultimately it's a case of putting on the gigs in venues that are suitable for live music

or perhaps not building luxury yuppie flats right next door to established music venues

[mkfs9]

most of these wedding venues cost arond £3500 just to hire the room. I am sure if they told clients at the time of booking the sound can only be so quiet I bet many would change venues.

[bruce]

I play occasionally on the wedding circuit. Not a loud band by any stretch of the imagination. We have occasionally (once, as far as I can remember) been told by the wedding party that we're a wee bit too loud, in which case we'll drop the levels without question. We have never been told that we're too quiet.

 

But we regularly get comments along the lines of "It's great to hear a band that plays at a reasonable level. Most are far too loud for weddings - people coming to weddings often haven't seen each other for a long time, and like to talk" and "the last band that played here got louder and louder, even when we told them to turn it down a bit". We even once had someone say "The band last week only turned the volume down when I threatened not to pay them"

 

These comments are coming from the venue management, and from the wedding party - the people who are paying the band!

[mkfs9]

We get comments all the time and word of mouth is how our network of weddings as taken off. I just wish party people would pick a venue and be told if there is a limmiter when enquiering. Check out our website and read some of our feedback. you will see we are a very profesional band.

 

www.paradoxband.co.uk

[Wilflet]

it does seem some of these things are installed to show their responding to complaints rather than being 100% thought out, such as venues iv engineered in where all the local residents we're beyond the FoH end of the venue, the mic was behind the stage, pointing down 45 degrees ish from the back wall. The PA, with a playback source seemed unable to trip the mic, I had a go at tuning the house kit before the band arrived - snare and floor tom took out the pa before I had put mics on them. Tell the drummer about it, he plays quietly, problem solved.

Soundcheck- vocals in the wedges at anything resembling a proper level takes the mic out. Have to resort to moving wedges to sidefill type positions raised on boxes. By the show I think we've sorted all the problems we're going to get.

Second song in, crowd start singing along, takes out the power again- by this point everyone with the key to the trips has clocked off for the nigt. 13 to 63 out the box, run off alternate power with venue management in foh with a noise meter. never got near the agreed limits there, no complaints from residents. When asked why the mic wasnt out front and set to the allowed limit (rather than behind stage and presumably set to what the venue had worked out the allowed limit would reflect to) they had no idea.

 

But as previously mentioned they are there for a reason so wont be bypassed. It might be an idea to approach venue management, tell them about your concerns of back-line damage, see if you can get separate power for that. At which point if there is tripping the pa still goes, your down to sensible backline level, and obviously without the vocals your going to stop fairly quickly anyway. If you can work it so pedals are powered off the pa side of things then you'll loose your sound from the amps without turning them off.

This does of course require finding power thats not going to give earthing issues and preferably be on the same phase.

[mkfs9]

Thanx a contructive reply instead of a turn it down one. As I say I know they are there for a reason, but I am sure the mike was above the drummer somewhere last night. And would not hire a venue for 3 or 4 grand if I knew it had one.