LEDs for school

[RacingHippo]

Some alleged "friend" let slip to my son's headmaster that I used to (20-odd years ago) work in theatre, specifically lighting at the local touring house, studio and concert halls.

It wasn't long before he was on the blower to me asking if I'd have a look at their stage lights as they weren't working.

Just as well they weren't, as I'd have felt duty bound to condemn the desk (I can't remember what it was - built-in dimmers though) on the spot.

 

Long story short (OK, not quite as long), he's found some cash (about £5k!) to replace it all, and wants me to specify summat. (To be fair I offered first - I could see it was inevitable I'd get involved anyway and an opportunity to cozy up to the headmaster is a Good Thing to my mind).

 

It's a primary school, so there's only a small rostrum stage – about 5mx3m – with a single bar about 2m from the front of stage and 5-6m up (the room doubles as a sports hall, so to hang lanterns lower would be to condemn them to an early death at the hands of an errant football).

Nothing is ever straightforward though.

There is no FOH. So I'll be including a new bar in the plan about 5m behind the existing one. But that's the easy bit.

In order to upgrade the power supply (which, to be frank, it'll need as it's running off a 13A spur) we'd need to get contractors to run new cable from the other side of the kitchens, across the... well, it'd be tricky. There'd be little or no budget left.

 

Then a brainwave occurred: What about these new-fangled LED thingummies? We could stick a load of those up on the front bar with a daisy-chained DMX and not have to worry about power. AND the school's on a big eco-drive. Extra brownie points ahoy! AND we'll have colour options (so much better than having to hire a tallescope to change some gels mid-performance). And we can get away with 4x500w profiles on the new bar without fear of plunging class 2R into darkness.

 

So I've been exercising my Google-Fu.

 

And I now have more questions than answers.

 

Before I'd have just slung half a dozen 500w Fresnels up, but the LED equivalent is proving hard to find (possibly because a Fresnel lens needs a single point source of light and not 36 of 'em, but searching for “Fresnelish”, whilst yielding some fascinating Estonian sites, didn't get me much in the way of luminaires).

There's the Elation ELED (but it's only white!). Or the Miltec MTC-PAR3W)/T) (but will it be bright enough?).

But hang on – there's an abundance of LED Pars. And LED colour washes. Should I perhaps be using these instead (I cringe at the thought of creating a general cover from pars but these are different. More even. Aren't they?).

And we've got a 6m gap betwixt them and the little darlings that need to be lit beautifully for their mummies to see. Will they have enough welly?

 

I've read the (very useful) “LED Pars, How good are they?” thread and Brian's “Great LED PAR can vs PAR 56 shootout ” as well as a whole load of other LED- or school-related threads, but I'm still befuddled as to what's the best option.

 

So can anyone offer any advice?

Should I be looking at colour wash? Or will pars do the job? Or are there some Fresnelish links that aren't in Estonian?

[paulears]

For a Primary school, oddly, I;d say this is a good move. You don't need amazing theatrical and controlled lighting, just the option to throw some colour around. The schools I visit who have lit their drama spaces with cheap LED PAR style fixtures are very happy. They don't notice the steppy fades and blobby beam dispersion. Apart from the electrickery savings to appease the greens, the other benefit is heat savings - no more heating the room up and having to open the windows, or sweat to death. The LED Fresnels Brian tested could well do the trick. What's certain is that if the room lights up, and you can do lots of nice colour stuff, they'll be happy. You do have the snag of the cost of distributing power and DMX around the room with splitters for the DMX to save too much daisy chaining, but it's do-able.

 

If it was a High School or college where they have to do proper lighting, I'd still say no - but that isn't what you're doing. What are you planning for control?

[Ynot]

The LED market seems to be growing quite quickly now...

CPC have several newer options on their lists, and I'm sure other suppliers will too.

The LED fresnel and profile (yes, profile) are steadily starting to appear. It wasn't that long ago I was fairly confident that LED technology wasn't going to be good enough for some years to compete seriously with the incandescent sources, but I had a look at a white/amber LED can the other day which easily (though without direct comparison) matched a 575W multipar for brightness. Not a cheap one, but prices WILL now start to drop as more of them hit the streets.

[adam2]

I would agree that LED lighting is the way forward.

The energy savings are vast, not only saving running costs but also allowing numerous lanterns to be worked from a 13 amp socket or fused connection unit.

 

The absence of dimmers also reduces the amount of mains voltage cabling which is allways desireable when young children, and perhaps non technical adults are present.

Even allowing 75 watts per fixture, which is gernerous, that is about 40 lanterns on a 13 amp supply.

 

If a few existing incandescent lanterns are to be retained, then if not exceeding about 3,000 watts in total, these may be worked from a different 13 amp socket.

 

This should avoid any electrical installation work.

[Brian]

Were it me, I'd be tempted to put a small number of basic fresnels to give a nice even open white wash. The white from cheaper LED units isn't all that pleasant yet. These could be run from a small dimmer pack installed on the bar to keep all the mains out of the way.

[tommulliner]

Were it me, I'd be tempted to put a small number of basic fresnels to give a nice even open white wash. The white from cheaper LED units isn't all that pleasant yet. These could be run from a small dimmer pack installed on the bar to keep all the mains out of the way.

 

I agree with brian that the LED's white isn't very nice at all. Why dont you mix the two? Have a white wash from the fresnels and have some LEDs up to give a colour wash eather over the top, but it may not work as they aren't that bright, or have them on the set to give the set some colour or even some light!

[RacingHippo]

Paulears - excellent point about quality of lighting. I'm allowing my inner perfectionist to influence me too much!

So long as the units I get will throw the required 6m well enough, pars will probably do then. That also means I can (probably) get standard doors for them to tidy up the edges (I've got to let the perfectionist have some say!).

 

Thomann have some Stairville 36x3W for about £130. Bargain. No idea what their beam angle is though - Google fails me on this :)

The nearest thing I've found to them power-wise is the aforementioned Miltec MTC-PAR3W but they're twice the price (10 out of 10). Are they really twice as good? And I wonder do they need to be?

 

 

You do have the snag of the cost of distributing power and DMX around the room with splitters for the DMX to save too much daisy chaining, but it's do-able.

Bear in mind there’s only 2 bars, and probably at most 16 lanterns up in the air. If I need to split at all it’ll only be one for each bar.

 

What are you planning for control?

Planning… hmm… interesting concept! I’m actually "planning" to see what I can find second-hand that’ll do the job, as I suspect a new board will take too big a chunk of the budget. Unless you’ve any suggestions, of course...

 

 

The LED fresnel and profile (yes, profile) are steadily starting to appear.

I was looking at Robert Juliat’s AledIN LED Profile the other day. Amazin'.

The future – and LED technology – is getting brighter by the day!

 

The absence of dimmers also reduces the amount of mains voltage cabling which is allways desireable when young children, and perhaps non technical adults are present.

Absolutely true. Actually, it’s the adults that concern me more :)

 

If a few existing incandescent lanterns are to be retained, then if not exceeding about 3,000 watts in total, these may be worked from a different 13 amp socket.

 

This should avoid any electrical installation work.

I shall certainly be using some incandescents. There’s some serviceable (and in need of servicing!) 23s which I’ll rig up for a static spot and there’s profiles to be hung from the new bar. (2+4)x500w=3k. Bingo.

 

In fact, I plan to do as Brian suggested:

These could be run from a small dimmer pack installed on the bar to keep all the mains out of the way.

 

 

Were it me, I'd be tempted to put a small number of basic fresnels to give a nice even open white wash.

They have 4 123s which should scrub up OK; if the white quality is truly awful (i.e. if it’s bad enough for them to pass comment) I’ll do as you suggested and keep the LEDs for colour washes.

I'll have to be careful about power though with profiles to feed as well. In fact, maybe the profiles will be enough to help with the whiteness anyway? I may need to experiment.

 

Hah! Tom must have been reading over my shoulder while I was writing that reply:

I agree with brian that the LED's white isn't very nice at all. Why dont you mix the two?

 

Thanks ever so much for your input so far, guys. I think we’re getting somewhere... <_<

[Brian]

Thomann have some Stairville 36x3W for about £130. Bargain. No idea what their beam angle is though - Google fails me on this <_<

 

You might want to read my latest 'shootout'.

[RacingHippo]

You might want to read my latest 'shootout'.

How did I miss that?!

Where Google fails, Brian wins the day!

 

They look OK. 20° is a bit on the tight side though. I'll need to get my protractor out...

[joelmeakin]

ive just finished an install in a local church hall also with a budget of 5k they have now got 6x p64 500w and 3x 650w strand profiles flown foh

 

9x Chauvet Color Palette 3 uplighting the arch of the stage and 6 on stage as washes

also 2x isolution3 DMX floods onstage

 

cheepish 48ch DMX desk

12ch of dimming

and a 6x3m DMX star cloth

 

with comsumables and labor

came in on budget and on time at 5k

[mac500]

Smart bars could be a good option to get some dimmers in the air with minimal cable problem. You would also have to put DMX up there anyway for the LEDs then that wouldn't be a problem. The 3w LED pars from Thomann are very good for the price, 20 degrees from 6m should be fine I would imagine.

[dmxtothemax]

Whilst led pars would solve your limited power problem,

Most of the economical led units would struggle to light a stage at 5 or 6 metres.

If you used a lot of them you might get some color on the stage,

But as for white leds good ones are expensive, and you would need a lot at 5 or 6 metres

It all depends on how much light you will want.

If you compare it to a stage lit with conventinal lights (most will)

it will need a lot of led units.

[Big Jay]

As for control, I would highly recoment SmartFade,

 

An excellent intro to the world on Lighting Control and works great with LED, just three faders RGB and can also hold generics.

[boatman]

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cheepish 48ch DMX desk

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Sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm looking for a similar desk for a local village hall. I'm advising them to look at the Jester, which one did you go for?

[RacingHippo]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions so far.

 

The current plan is to get a couple of the Stairville 36x3w pars from Thomann and have a play with them. If the pair of them can cover the full depth of the stage (4m) from their position 5m up and 1m in front, we'll manage with 12 or 16 of them. If not, I'll use the wider (30°) Miltec units, although it'll cost twice as much :).

 

I'll get a couple of 4-channel dimmers to hang, one on each of the 2 bars (I've still to find a source of alloy bars...) for powering specials and a gaggle of white-enhancing fresnels if needed.

 

Control-wise... I've yet to decide for definite, but Smartfade looks good, as does the Jester. I'll see how the budget stretches!