Advice on new console for church

[AndyEmery]

Hi All,

 

My church are currently looking to replace their existing 24 channel DDA analogue desk for a digital desk. None of the sound team at the church have much experience of digital desks and therefore we have currently only been guided by sound companies as to what is available. We are looking to spend around £30k and have already had a go with the Digico SD8 and Allen & Heath iLive. Our first impression was that the SD8 was the right kind of size and layout but then it crashed several times on first use, whereas the iLive seemed much more like an analogue desk and a bit basic at first glance. We rarely use more than 24 channels but for ease of use it would be ideal if it had around 36 faders, to include auxs/groups/master etc. We currently only use 4 aux's for fb's but would like to increase this to 6, however, in the future we plan to incorporate a personal IEM system, maybe even something similar to that of the axiom system for the core band members.

 

I dont really think we have any other major requirements but would be happy to respond to questions if you think there is something that I missed!

 

So basically, have you had any experience, be it good or bad, with the above desks and/or what would you suggest we look at, someone had mentioned Digidesign but haven't found anyone in the local area who can recommend a specific desk and obviously cost quite a major thing?

 

Thanks very much

 

Andy

[themadhippy]

Have you considered the yamaha offerings? either an LS9/32 or m7,for £30k you could get 2 ls9's one front of house and one on monitors if you realy wanted too.

[AndyEmery]

Only need one really, wont have another people to run 2 week in-week out! Personally I have used and quite liked yamaha, also I believe you can put the aviom card in the back of them saving a racking unit in the future but aren't they rather old and a bit dated now or do they only get better with age?

 

Andy

[chelgrian]

We are looking to spend around £30k and have already had a go with the Digico SD8 and Allen & Heath iLive. Our first impression was that the SD8 was the right kind of size and layout but then it crashed several times on first use, whereas the iLive seemed much more like an analogue desk and a bit basic at first glance. We rarely use more than 24 channels but for ease of use it would be ideal if it had around 36 faders, to include auxs/groups/master etc. We currently only use 4 aux's for fb's but would like to increase this to 6, however, in the future we plan to incorporate a personal IEM system, maybe even something similar to that of the axiom system for the core band members.

 

Sounds like an Yamaha M7CL -32 would do everything you need and cost you less than 20K including meter bridge and external PSU. The other thing in this price bracket is the Soundcraft Vi Series however I've never used one.

[revbobuk]

With that amount to spend you could get a lot of the Roland kit - M400, various stageboxes, digital snakes and the personal monitoring system. Unlike the LS9 it does give you the option of limiting access to parts of the desk settings on a per-user basis, which can be really handy for churches. The personal mixer is excellent, and integrates well with the rest of the kit. Worth a look

[Bobbsy]

+1 for checking out the Yamaha M7CL. The design is a few years old but it's still a widely used and very popular console for lots of good reasons. The fader per channel configuration is a major selling point for me, certainly better than layers and the touch screen works well. Perhaps not a consideration for you but there's a huge user base of people who can drive the console. The M7 punches well above its weight (and cost) in terms of it being used in theatre, music and corporate applications.

 

As has been mentioned, the Soundcraft Vi is also worth a look. I've used the Vi6 (a bit out of your range) and liked the UI and sound quality...but was less impressed by the stability of the software though--that was a few years back so hopefully it's better now.

 

But it it was my money, I think I'd still go the M7CL route.

 

Bob

[tolley1466]

We are looking to spend around £30k and have already had a go with the Digico SD8 and Allen & Heath iLive. Our first impression was that the SD8 was the right kind of size and layout but then it crashed several times on first use, whereas the iLive seemed much more like an analogue desk and a bit basic at first glance. We rarely use more than 24 channels but for ease of use it would be ideal if it had around 36 faders, to include auxs/groups/master etc. We currently only use 4 aux's for fb's but would like to increase this to 6, however, in the future we plan to incorporate a personal IEM system, maybe even something similar to that of the axiom system for the core band members.

 

Sounds like an Yamaha M7CL -32 would do everything you need and cost you less than 20K including meter bridge and external PSU. The other thing in this price bracket is the Soundcraft Vi Series however I've never used one.

 

The Soundcraft Vi series are so easy to use. Every function does what you expect. However, I've not had any live experience, just a bit of a play around in the warehouse.

 

Would it be worth trying a DigiCo SD9? They seem on par with the small scale digital consoles...

[Simon Lewis]

A few thoughts spring to mind...

1. I presume you have some strong reasons for the upgrade? - something that you cannot do now, a failing desk, insufficient channels, lack of quality? I would not suggest standing in the way of progress, but the DDA is actually quite a good desk, and I for one wouldn't change it just because it's analogue.
   
2. Where did the budget figure come from? You can obviously buy a number of pretty good desks for the money, but perhaps a better approach is to more closely define what you need and then select the desk that delivers it?
   
3. If the personal monitoring aspect is an important thing to incorporate, then you should conentrate on a desk that integrates well with either the Aviom or the Roland personal monitors. The latter seems to be a better thought out system, but you wouldn't use the REAC system with another set of AtoD convertors!
   
4. Will your present multicore system support your new needs and proposed desk? Do you want to buy into an analogue replacement system, or one with a digital multicore incorporated? If it is the latter, what other things might you want to connect? You may not want a separate monitor desk or recording split now, but these may be useful expansions later?
   
5. How good are you engineers? Getting the right HUI can be pretty important if you do not want to end up with a system that few can master, and cannot be used by non skilled staff members for midweek funerals etc.
   
6. Will your desk sit well in the overall PA system? Are the other components of comparable quality (or are in a plan to be upgraded?). Again, I would not suggest downgrading the desk as such, but if you have Peavey cabs and they are staying put, then the subtleties of the desks mentioned may be a little lost... Then again, I suspect you have (or had) a flown EV large format horn system in your church - if it's the one I'm thinking of!
   

I would certainly look at the new M7 with the ES multi, the SD9, the Digidesign offerings, the A&H range, and the Soundcrafts. The Roland may be worth a look because of its monitor system that integrates so well with the multicore system. Be specific about what you need, not what you can afford (especially as some churches might feel just a bit jealous!) and make sure you select something that will see you through the next 20 years...

 

Simon

[Solstace]

Simon's last paragraph is worth heeding. :)

 

FYI - For another church application, I've tried the Roland M400 and iLive t112 side-by-side and ended up preferring the iLive system. The mic pre's and sound processing sounded more "right" than the Roland given the same source material, and the controls on the iLive were far more intuitive. Ultimately it came down to which desk I looked at least during mixing (which therefore *should* have meant I was watching the musicians and ministers more). That was the iLive, mostly because of the control pot markings, and the LCD's on the fader strips showing good information about muting, grouping and channel labelling. Far more intuitive and informative than running up to four layers of tape and/or squinting at a tiny screen on the Roland! I also found the iLive far easier to "teach" to members of the sound team here, all of whom are die-hard analogue operators with no digital experience outside playing with Garageband for a bit of a laugh.

 

I did look at the Yamaha offerings - the LS9 looks and feels too fiddly (too much like the O1_ or O2_ series), and the MC7L or others are too expensive, especially when the digital multicore option is thrown in as well - a necessity for us because our mix position will be temporary and transient - we need to keep cable bulk and the number of plugs to an absolute minimum. If you don't need digital multi then the higher-end Yamaha's or the Soundcraft offerings might be a good option. I didn't look at the at the latter for our use after seeing the cost of using one with a digital multi. But with your budget you might make one fit.

[Pete McCrea]

The church I'm involved in have recently upgraded their PA - Desk and FOH speakers and amps have come in at around £30k - Roland M400 and two I/O boxes, Martin W8VDQ, S218 and amplifiers for FOH and Mons. Now that price has been achieved by people in the industry using their buying power to get a good price that might not be achievable to a non trade user. But it gives you somewhere to aim for in terms of desk price within the overall figure.

 

In terms of the desk - I've not engineered a show on it, but I have found the times I've had a poke around on it quite intuitive, and wouldn't be phased if they asked me to engineer the service tonight. I haven't used any other digital desk, and if I was asked to do it on a M7/LS9/SD8 I'd be a lot more nervous.

 

The other benefit is that as mentioned above there are levels that you can lock things down to which could be very useful in a church environment.

 

I'd also echo the comments above about defining what you need to achieve.

 

Much as it pains me to point people to the competition, but you are just up the road from SFL in Reading. They do both hire and installation, and have the M7 LS9 and M400 in hire stock I believe, so could easily give you a demo if there was an install possibly coming of the back of it... If you do get in touch with them, then mention my name, and I might get a beer off them next time I see them!

[Matt Riley]

Hi Andy,

 

I'd say it's between the Roland and the M7 if you're looking for church market saturation. I'm probs on the side of the Roland cos of the digital multicore and M48 system which is just so much better than the aviom rig.

 

Just cos you've got 30k doesn't mean you need to spend it all :) Bob Kelly's got some used M7s at a really tasty price (like 12-13k iirc). Or you could consider the digidesign venue range which is fast becoming a very requested touring desk. Coincidentally Bob Kelly also has some going cheap!

 

I'm very aware that like the soundcraft digitals, in my circles the Ilive hasn't achieved market penetration in anywhere the same way as the roland, yamaha M7 and digi range have and so I would be concerned about future support for the devices. I'd also be asking myself whether there's a hidden reason for this?

 

Good to drop in on you guys last weekend btw!

 

Matt

[Ben Couch]

I'd say take a look at the new Digico SD9, supposed to be retailing around 11k, and has all of the main functions of any other Digico desk, just on a physically smaller desk.

 

Just my 2p

[obikwan]

Have you considered the yamaha offerings? either an LS9/32 or m7,for £30k you could get 2 ls9's one front of house and one on monitors if you realy wanted too.

 

 

Having used the m7 I would humbly suggest that it is usable but not ideal for a church setting. Church systems need to be easily learnable and accessible because they tend to move and if (god forbid) the current sound tech wants to leave the church he/she has to train a replacement. the M7's user interface is not that friendly and navigating menus is a pain and a half to do on the fly. I would suggest the digico but maybe not that exact unit. I have never had any issues with the digico board and they are easy to work with.

[lonfire]

Hi,

not that I've got a huge amount of experience with digital desks, (although I do have alot of experience of churchs!), I had an M7 one sunday morning which we left setup from a gig the night before (I wasn't engineering the gig the night before and had never used an M7 before). I got down about an hour before everybody else and had everything setup how I wanted it by the time everybody arrived. I found it easy to use and really enjoyable (although I'm a software developer by trade so software based things are second nature to me)..

 

I have also used the roland M400, and infact when I did some training on it took a young lad with me (16ish), to have a play. After a quick run down he was quite happy settings EQs, compressors, gates, aux sends..etc. Effects he found a bit more tricky, but mainly because he's never patched in or played with them before on anything..

 

But as I say I don't have any sunday by sunday experience of using digital desks. At the present rate £30k would be my budget for 40 years+! A huge amount of our money goes on outreachs and good causes (youthworkers, orphanages, youthclubs..etc) so I can't grumble really.. Although if I had a fraction of the budget some churchs spend on events I'd be laughing.. but its all scales, small church, small budget, big church, mega toys and playtime ;-)

 

But in conclusion, I'd also recommend SFL in Reading, they are an amazing bunch of guys and highly knowledgable when it comes to church installs (as well as anything sound/av related!), and they have M400s and M7CLs so might be worth a demo or two..

 

Regards

Chris

[AndyEmery]

Thanks for all the responses so far, give us a lot to think about, please see below in response to some of your questions, sorry if I have missed any!

 

The whole system is 25 years old and bits are starting to fail, including some of the desk channels etc. We have also had to add a small 12 channel desk to run extra channels when we have larger events. The upgrade is part of an overall overhaul of the media system and the desk is one of the last pieces having had the speakers, amps and processing system recently redone.

 

I believe price was based on the cost of the SD8 plus relevant install costs so I would assume the actual estimated spend for the desk is £20-25k, this cost was provided by a company that did some other work in the building.

 

I think if we were going down the route of a second desk then we would also need to start looking for new building because there is only so much we can do, to a good quality, in our current one, so hopefully we wouldn’t have to think about that. We have a current multi-core system, however, another part to the change is that we are planning to move the location of our technical area and therefore a digital multicore, or a desk with a “remote” rack would be required. We would be plugging in a full band consisting of around 20 channels and the occasional laptop on stage and then by the desk we would have 8 microphone receivers, CD, 2x DVD, PC etc so allowing around 15 is ideal for expansion but we can obviously shift the microphone receivers if worst come to worst.

 

Our engineering range is huge, so something that is easy to run on the face is essential but obviously once we have our sessions made this will help for midweek events etc, however, we don’t want to comprise quality for something that's only benefit is that its easy to use because over time people will be able to learn.

 

As I said above, this is part of a large overhaul so the other items in the chain are well above the level of the DDA analogue desk, this has been heard when we had the SD8 for a few weeks on demo, everything was much cleaner and we were able to drive the system a lot harder while still keeping clarity. I don’t believe we have ever had EV horns, it’s been Meyer since the start, but I’m only 24 and the church is around 25 years old so may be slightly wrong!

 

With regard to SFL I have done training courses with them and know of Mark, believe he is on here somewhere, so may have to give them a ring and see about the Yamaha’s and Roland.

 

Thanks again

 

Andy