Help! Lighting for a Dance Display

[Geo_b]

Hi

 

I am trying to help a friend out with her dancing display I have managed to borrow a lot of LED equipment (PARs, Battons and effects). The problem is the venue is very run down and we are not allowed to change any of the lighting already there (Fresnels and Floods). So my plan is to buy a simple desk that will allow me two lines of DMX 1 going to the venues dimmers to control their lighting above head and the other to control my LED lighting around the stage for effect.

 

What would I need to achieve two DMX outs and what Control desk would people recommend? I have been looking at the Transcension Scene Setter DC 1224 DMX Controller and the Transcension DMX Operator 2 Controller.

 

Any help would be extremely appreciated!

 

Many Thanks

 

Geo

[Just Some Bloke]

What would I need to achieve two DMX outs

There are 3 possibilities:

 

1) use a control desk with 2 DMX outs (e.g. Fat Frog)

2) use a DMX splitter like the one discussed in this thread (or search the forum for other suggestions - we've discussed these many times)

3) just use 1 DMX ring (I assume you won't need more than 512 channels?). Come from the board to your kit then link each item into a chain then come out of the last of your units and into the venue's dimmers.

 

HTH

[dunk_1984]

Although agreeing with JSB's post. I can't help but think as this is only for a short period and the lighting is borrowed. Have you considered hiring a desk? Would allow you more options and depending on the run length potentially cheaper.

[Ynot]

Welcome to the Blue Room.

 

First observation is that neither of the Transcension controllers you mention are really suitable at all. the Scenesetter would appear to be a simple 12 or 24 channel desk, but it's likely that the venue's existing kit will swallow up a load of those channels, leaving you little room to drive the LEDs.

(You ARE planning to utilise the venue generic kit as well, yes??)

 

Even if you just used that desk for the LEDs, 24 channels wouldn't go very far at all - eg many LED pars use 6 channels each, so 4 of those and you're full!

 

The Operator 2 is definitely a DJ type scanner controller, and unlikely to be suitable for controlling the LEDs either.

 

So forget those before you start and look at a better desk option - and I'll also strongly suggest you hire something that will do the job properly - ie a pukka theatre style desk. And at the same time I'd also suggest looking to hire the desk for longer than you need it for the show - so that you can 'play' with it and these LEDs together off site to get a handle on how to use it properly before you get on to stage.

[Tom Baldwin]

Sound advice already.

 

If the venue is so run down, are you sure their dimmers accept DMX? If not, you'll need to investigate getting an appropriate demux.

If the venue is already using DMX, can you not make use of their desk?

 

What's the venue/ where are you? People here may be able to offer more specific advice (hire companies, experience of the venue etc) with this information.

[Paul J Need]

Seconded - or thirded :P

Hire a desk - which will bound to be cheaper and you won't be left with kit you may hardly use

[Jivemaster]

With LED fixtures needing 4 - 8 DMX channels you are going to need a full universe not a small DJ controller. So you need to hire a fairly comprehensive desk. for time to read the book, and for time to programme all the lights in, and time to create some scenes. then you may need to busk through these on the night.

 

With LEDs maybe not being over bright you WILL need to check the blackout in the hall. NOTHING competes with shafts of sunlight coming in through holes in curtains etc.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Even consider looking for a desk to hire that has an offline editor available so that you can start to have a virtual play before it arrives.

[Geo_b]

Thank you all for your help. The DMX line in the venue goes from the lighting desk straight into dimmers and the rig complete with internally wired bars (15a), the DMX connection is 5pin and looks a bit different to what I am used to, but maybe its just an older style of connection. The show is only running for three nights and would definitely be worth hiring a desk but which one as I don't have a lot of time to programme I was mainly hoping to create a number of groups/scenes and busk my way through. What desk would allow this and still remain quick to use (after training). The venues desk is not usable when I fade lanterns up they flicker until 75% on which looks terrible, I want to utilise whats in the venue with the use of the LED kit and control it all from one desk.

We are based in Glasgow and the show is in a local high school theatre.

 

Thank you all again for your time.

 

Geo

[Brian]

...the DMX connection is 5pin and looks a bit different to what I am used to, but maybe its just an older style of connection. ...

Are you sure it's DMX? And are you going to be able to plug a hired desk in?

 

Some schools were installed with a DMX system but not on standard XLR connectors. They used connectors which had power on them to power the desk. Get it wrong and you'll toast the hired desk and/or the dimmers and/or anything else connected.

[Ynot]

I think a better idea of EXACTLY what is at the school would be wise to publish on this basis.

What desk

What dimmers

EXACTLY what does the connector look like?

 

Post some photos if you're unsure of any of the above

[Geo_b]

Brian, I'm not entirely sure and there is not technician on site at all. The connection is 5pin and the only thing connected to the desk, if this connection is not standard DMX and does have power running on the same line what are my options. May sound stupid but could I use a hired desk to control the venues one or totally bypass it completely and go straight to the dimmers?

 

Ynot I don't know the above information and the school is very strict about letting us in until our hire days and request more money but I will definitely try and get in and get details and pictures.

 

Anymore information in the DMX system with power would be very helpful.

Thanks

[Roderick]

The show is only running for three nights and would definitely be worth hiring a desk but which one as I don't have a lot of time to programme I was mainly hoping to create a number of groups/scenes and busk my way through. What desk would allow this and still remain quick to use (after training).

Why not have a look at the ChamSys MagicQ offering? MagicQ thread

That will give you the option to plot the show in the comfort of your living room for 10 quid. And maybe then hire an add-on wing fro the three shows for ease of operation?

 

Provided the venue has indeed proper DMX.

If the connector you saw wasn't your standard XLR but a DIN type plug, chances are that it could be ADB or S20 protocol. In that case you would also need to hire a standard converter such as the Artistic License unit. You can then run your LED lights straight of DMX and the school dimmers on their protocol.

[Tom Baldwin]

To expand on power + DMX:

The DMX signal uses two wires, plus a shielding connection. That leaves 2 pins free in a 5-pin connector.

While the specification for DMX states that these 2 extra pins should only be used for an additional data link, some manufacturers have used them to send an (extra low voltage - typically 12V - 24V) supply voltage back from dimmers to desk (CCT and Pulsar spring to mind as examples - CCT also used a 6-pin DIN connector in this way).

 

If you wanted to use your desk with such an arrangement, you'd need to

- be confident which pins in the 5-pin XLR from the dimmers were being used for which purpose

- build an adaptor lead which linked only the data +, data - and shield pins from the dimmer to these pins on your desk (in the example of Pulsar, that would mean connecting pins 1, 2 and 3 straight through, and leaving pins 4 and 5 disconnected... actually much (most?) DMX cable only has one data link anyway, so does this particular case by default - but check, check, check.

 

When you say the connector looks unusual - are you sure it isn't a DIN connector?:

http://uk.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/42245314.jpg

The commonest XLR connectors in the UK are from Neutrik:

http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/thumbs/210_216591.png

http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/thumbs/210_1338366791.png

but you might find Switchcraft ones lurking:

http://www.switchcraft.com/images/connector_p.5photo.gif

or ITT Cannon:

http://en.wikiaudio.org/images/thumb/1/1d/XLR_.jpg/180px-XLR_.jpg

 

Do any of these pictures help? If not, the connector is almost certainly not an XLR, and we're really going to need the name of the desk. DIN and XLR are certainly the comonest 5-pin control connectors I know of.

[Jivemaster]

If you are not able to see the venue then where is the power going to come from for the LEDs that you want to take in? Have you the power (quantity ) available and the sockets in sensible places.

[Ynot]

Brian, I'm not entirely sure and there is not technician on site at all. The connection is 5pin and the only thing connected to the desk, if this connection is not standard DMX and does have power running on the same line what are my options. May sound stupid but could I use a hired desk to control the venues one or totally bypass it completely and go straight to the dimmers?

 

Ynot I don't know the above information and the school is very strict about letting us in until our hire days and request more money but I will definitely try and get in and get details and pictures.

I'd say that it is essential that you get in to the school ASAP to look at what you're going to get. Whether the school is strict about giving access is academic (pardon the pun) - if they're hiring out the space then they have a responsibility to hirers to allow them to see what's what, else there could well be chaos when the day arrives. I'm assuming that this school does not have a written tech spec (few of them do, sadly) that you can get a hold of?

 

I also assume (from your posts, as your profile is sadly lacking, so apologies if I'm wrong) that you yourself are a student...

If that IS so, then it may well be a better idea for an adult to make the approach to the school requesting a visit.

 

Once you do, let us have more info and we can maybe proceed.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

If you are not able to see the venue then where is the power going to come from for the LEDs that you want to take in? Have you the power (quantity ) available and the sockets in sensible places.

And further to the above, do you have sufficient cabling available to you to a) properly and safely get power to them all (and I don't mean reams of 13A 4-way leads ganged one into another in tandem!) and of course b) get DMX to them all - including of course getting the first DMX run from your desk (or the dimmer DMX output) to stage.

 

And c) have enough 3-pin DMX reversals to cope with the inevitable pin-swaps that will come out with all that (presumably) budget LED kit you're borrowing...