New show playback PC

[cedd]

Hi all

My show PC has bitten the dust. It may have something to do with the nasty fall it took a few days ago! Whilst being flight cased and having RAID hard drives, it's still dead and I suspect a cracked motherboard.

The current pc is very heavy within a 4U flight case/ I now feel this is overkill, but don't want to go too far the other way and go for a laptop (poor sound quality, difficult to repair, I already have a nice touch screen, the list goes on) so I'm looking for either something small and rackmount (perhaps to go in a 2u case) or a non-rackmount solution that I can get a case made for.

 

I realise this one perhaps leans towards just being a generic PC question (not somewhere I want to go) but I feel I have some specific questions that at least make it sort of specialist to us!

 

So... I currently run an M-Audio Delta 66 PCI sound card. Whatever I buy has to support that and give me a socket for it.

I need to decide if I'm going rackmount or not. To be honest, my kit doesn't get chucked in the back of a truck, so I'm inclined to think a small form PC and a bespoke case would do the job. I've been tempted by the (extremely) small form pc's from the likes of EEpc and even the integrated PC/touchscreen combinations. But.... they don't allow PCI card connection (or any other form of expansion).

 

Do I look at doing RAID hard drives again? They don't seem to have helped in this instance and take up another PCI slot for the driver card.

 

Im also concerned about excessive RF noise. My pc often sits next to my radio mic rack (not out of choice either!) and I don't want it causing interference. With that in mind, a metal case appears to be the way forward.

 

Oh, it also needs to be reasonably quiet in terms of fan noise.

 

It's only going to be running multiplay and a friend's own written piece of similar software. It may also occasionally run chamsys and I might leave cubase sx on there in case of a last minute edit being needed.

 

Everything currently seems to be pointing towards a product from Shuttle. They do shoebox size cases but are still user configurable. But I'm interested in what other people are using and what people reccomend. I've not gone off of the rackmount idea yet, but I need to find a nice small, light case, preferably 2u or less. Again, suggestions please!!!

 

I hope that post has been different enough from a dom3stic PC question to be useful/interesting.

[Bobbsy]

Well, I can only give my experience with a sound playback PC.

 

First off, basic playback duties don't need a particularly powerful processor. I have a "better" PC for multitrack recording and mixing where real time effects are resource hogs, but for just playing sounds, basic will do.

 

In my case, I bought a 2nd hand small tower and did a clean install of Windows XP. I did put in two HDD but didn't worry about RAID. The only software on the computer was the OS, Playback software (in the days I built it this was SCS plus Soundplant which I used for "random" shows like panto), EAC for ripping CDs and my old version of Cooledit 2000 for simple editing. On the other drive I put my main collection of generic sound effects plus a new directory for each time I did a new show. I was obsessive about never installing any other software on the computer, to the point where I'd use CDs to transfer new sounds etc. into the computer, to avoid having any form of network connection. I also made sure the power supply was well specced for the hardware so it all ran quite cool. I was using an old MOTU sound card...can't remember the model now.

 

Obviously there was a CD drive as well!

 

I didn't bother with a rack mount...being a small tower, it took less space with the tower under the mixer table and just the monitor, keyboard and mouse up where I needed to get access to them. I had a basic flight case that held the tower in a foam cutout--but just took it out to operate. Once I got away from a CRT monitor, as second single case held the LCD screen, keyboard and cables.

 

My version of paranoia was to burn a CD (or data DVD) with all the necessary cues for a show in case of HDD failure--but never had to use it.

 

Anyway, perhaps not elegant but the above worked flawlessly for years until I semi retired and moved to Aus!

 

There's lots of other options of course but hopefully you can pull some ideas out of this ramble.

 

Bob

[Paul_R]

I'd take a look at this 2u rackmount case..

Acme 236

Its only 36.4cm deep so you can even put it in something like this Rack Bag to make it a bit more portable.

I'd put a motherboard in that has raid on board, and integrated graphics chipset (as you don't seem to require much for this).

The PCI sound card would work of a riser board. If Acme do not have anything suitable then something like this PCI Flexi Riser should work.

I'd definately still look at raided disks, not neccessarily for the protection it hasn't afforded you in this instance, but on my 4 odd rackmounts, I've had disks fail and the ability to just carry on is worth the additional cost.

SSD disks might be considered an option, but if your looking at normal disks then do get 7200rpm ones.

 

As to the noise, the only noisy part of this is likely to be the fan in the psu. Although its a 2u case, to fit everything in, they use a 1u powersupply. This does mean the fan is smaller, therefore noiser.

Its worth speaking to Acme, as it does depend on m/board and processor about PSU. I've also been and listened to the psu's in the warehouse..

Depending exactly what spec you want, you could always run an external PSU..

 

If you were willing to think about replacing the PCI soundcard, then it would be worth a better look at the LinITX.com site. Specifically you could look at something like this m/board Intel DG45FC which has integrated raid and graphics and can be built to a small form factor.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas,

Regards,

Paul

[back_ache]

it also needs to be reasonably quiet in terms of fan noise.

 

http://www.quietpc.com are specialists in quiet pc's and their components, it may be worth talking to them

[timtheenchanteruk]

have a look at gaming cases, these frequently come with handles on to aid easy carrying, and have the advantage that alot of them are lighter, you could even go aluminium.

 

if you want to have RAID, you dont need a PCI card for it, just buy a mobo with raid capability, there are lots around for not too much cash.

 

the acme case has a riser card for the PCIs to be mounted horizontally, you will find alot of the smaller form factors don't, and only have space for low profile PCI cards, not much good!!

 

are you going for a full new machine, or do you want to re-use processor/RAM etc?

 

apart from the ease of carrying/it stacks nicley, Im not sure a rack mounted PC has any protection advantages over a good case, apart from stopping scratches.

 

Im still not convinced 100% about SSD yet, whislt being VERY fast, their longevity is in question in my mind, plus the point (ok not a problem with the right raid) is no notice of dying, 90% of the time a HDD will give some sort of sign its on its way out.

[abbotsmike]

With regards to noise, I have a small form factor dell unit (pc and monitor on same stand, like you see in schools) and it has an external power brick, so no PSU noise. The unit itself is also pretty quiet. Only issue is I believe it runs off a single 2.5" HDD, and has no scop for expansion in terms of PCI cards.

[cedd]

Some very useful replies so far, especially the link to the cases! All the 2U ones up until now that I've seen have been way too deep for an audio rack, so that's perfect.

I'm currently watching a couple of Shuttle PC's on ebay, both of which allow me to still do RAID without a card, have PCI slots and are a decent enough spec for what I need. Plus they have a built in power supply so nothing to loose/clutter up the desk. I've used shuttles at work before and the only issues we've ever had have been with under-spec'd power supplies keeling over. As luck would have it, going through that loop at work has also left me with some decent contacts for better rated supplies. They also run pretty quiet BUT... have to have Shuttle's own heatpipe cooling system cause they don't have a cpu fan, just a case fan with a radiator grille type arrangement inside it coupled to the CPU. Seemed to work pretty well up until now at work, and they're on 24/7 locked inside cupboards, but doesn't give scope for noise improvement, so whilst t's already pretty good, I can't make it any better.

 

It is a real shame my old PC bought it. To be honest, I could just replace the motherboard and carry on, but it is a bit bulky and I had some work to do on it in terms of quietening. I was a bit miffed when it died, especially as I thought I'd mitigated against the most common circumstances - HDD failure and OS curruption. The RAID took care of the HDD side of things, and my best idea took care of the OS side of things - I had a removeable caddy with a HDD in it. This was not part of the RAID set, was first in the boot order, and had a completely fresh OS install in it. The idea was I carried it seperately and if I couldn't boot using the RAID cause of OS issues, I could plug in the caddy and the PC would boot from it - I'd then be able to still use the files from the RAID HDD's to work the show. Unfortunately none of the above mitigates for hardware failure, which is what I think I've ended up with!

[J Pearce]

Have a look at what Shuttle can offer you.

 

Very smartly built compact pcs, run cool and quiet (only one big fan if you get the external psu). Typically one PCI and one AGP/PCIe. Good onboard features including raid etc.

[techywhizz]

when it somes to soundcard, maybe look at the arx usb di stuff.. it gives balanced noisefree audio staright out...link here

[blueacid]

Right, let's look at what you've got:

 

You have a currently broken PC which has a failed motherboard. I'm going to assume that the CPU/ram are all too old to be useful today. You have a 4u rackmount case, with power supply (I'll assume this PSU is quiet enough for your requirements). You've also got a decent M-Audio PCI soundcard, and a PCI raid controller.

 

 

 

For sound playback, you REALLY don't need much power. My phone has sufficient CPU horsepower to decode video, so a couple of MP3s/WAVs at once is no problem for pretty much any computer - even an old Pentium 2 from the online tat bazaar/auction house.

 

 

I would suggest, therefore, that you opt for an Intel Atom based motherboard the Asus AT5NM10 looks like it'll do just the job:

 

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Home/Product/...ated-Intel-Atom

or

http://www.scan.co.uk/product.aspx?ProductId=36132

 

This board is fanless, and has low power consumption (so no heat to worry about so to speak, plus can use your existing PSU). It's got a single PCI card expansion slot, perfect for that M-Audio card. The onboard graphics card has a VGA output for your monitor (Will assume it's a VGA connector!)

 

 

After getting the board, all you'll want is some RAM for the thing. It takes DDR2 memory, first link I saw was here:

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Home/Product/...-800-PC6400-RAM

although, you can shop around for prices, or less/more ram. 2gig for £40 doesn't sound so bad; all in you'll be paying circa £100!

 

I'd then grab one of your existing hard drives (will assume that's SATA), and use the onboard connector. You might like to set up RAID-1; not sure if the motherboard can do that in its BIOS. To save you a quick wiki, RAID-1 means a direct mirror of the data between the two drives. That way if one drive should conk out, you should be able to press on.

 

 

What do you reckon?

[cedd]

That's really helpful blueacid. You're right, trying to make the most of what's already there is the best (read cheapest) way of going. I came very nearto winning a low-ish spec Shuttle PC on ebay, but it got away! That would have been perfect.

Unfortunately my current hard drives are IDE - it's an IDE Raid 1 driver card that I was using. The ideal would be RAID from the motherboard.

 

You're right too by saying I need a very low spec. The temptation to go for one of these new fangled boxes that'll fit in the palm of your hand is only gotten rid of by the need for PCI slots and ease of part replacement should there be a problem.

[timtheenchanteruk]

how new are your IDE drives? seeing as IDE is getting old now, if they are old ish, for the price of decent size SATA drives Id be tempted to replace the HDDs, depends on budget of course.

[cedd]

They were bought new as a pair for the RAID set about 2 years ago. I'm under no doubt that there is a lot better kit out there now, but apart from being dropped in reasonably spectacular style, this PC has done me well and has always had enough guts to do everything I asked of it. I think the way I do things in terms of theatre lends itself to a couple of smaller PC's rather than one that does everything in the future.

The main need of course is for playback, but my new radio mic rack will be USB monitored, as is my loudspeaker management unit. Then factor in an on-line editor for a digital desk (LS9 normally) and we're starting to switch between a number of screens here. Much better in my opinion to have one low spec pc on the playback side of things with the touch screen attached, then a second pc running all the "control" bits and pieces. I tend to VNC into this pc as well to do system setup from my laptop, so the second PC can be the "dirty" machine in that it goes on a (albeit very simple) network. My playback PC NEVER goes on the internet or a network.

But the main crux of this thread is about the playback PC. I'm working through blueacid's links with interest.

[cedd]

What was that term about sod's law.....

I decided to go through doing some logical testing to see what was salvageable. from the old PC. Powered it up..... and it booted! RAID utility then spent an hour rebuilding, but it looks fine! Don't all panic now and think I'm assuming that it is fine! Look at my day job and you'll see I can't be in the business of assuming things work ok! I don't trust the thing and am still looking to replace. Just a b*gger that it's sticking 2 fingers up at me now and working fine. I've even "gently abused" the case to see if I can make the fault come back - no use.

[blueacid]

What was that term about sod's law.....

I decided to go through doing some logical testing to see what was salvageable. from the old PC. Powered it up..... and it booted! RAID utility then spent an hour rebuilding, but it looks fine! Don't all panic now and think I'm assuming that it is fine! Look at my day job and you'll see I can't be in the business of assuming things work ok! I don't trust the thing and am still looking to replace. Just a b*gger that it's sticking 2 fingers up at me now and working fine. I've even "gently abused" the case to see if I can make the fault come back - no use.

 

Well, might be worth considering investing in a cheap netbook then? Or dive on ebay for an older pentium 3 or 4 machine? Surely wouldn't cost too much, and then you'd be able to have a spare machine?