Hybrid Cable. Mains + 4 Data + 8 Audio: Join the 3K Club?

[dan slv-tech]

Of course just thinking out the box, If your going to be strapping cables to it for digidesign jobs, why not just remove the mains element from the loom, thus saving you alot of cost on copper, removing the weight (cheaper shipping to you) and removing the mains isolation issues. Any allowing you to use different mains arrangments.

2.5 will do you for 16amp, going to have to run more TRS for lighting, local speakers, and other stuff.

 

 

dan

[dbuckley]

Mains and signal - Future Film Developments used to do camera cable with mains and coax, and they had the test specs in the catalogue; basically they had lamps at 50% off a triac dimmer down the mains cores, and there was very little breakthrough to the coaxes.

[jamesperrett]

Arh well the moment we put robust coax down this as well it gets er.... huge.

I guess the plan here would be to run this new thing AND the 4 way coax systems we already have for the Digi Venue systems.

 

We really want 8 lines of traditional stuff for all the other adhoc ties we do. If we specify another custom hybrid then we need another 3Km!

 

Could you use baluns to convert the 75 ohm coax connections to 110 ohms twisted pair? This would mean that you could use the new cable on all your systems.

 

James.

[Mark Payne]

Maybe James

 

We dont like to dick with the supported way for doing the Digidesign thing. The expected UK le solution is VDC HD Vision. We use it Skan uses it, VDC reccomend it for this application. I like the way it terminates onto BNC. Robust.

 

Looks right. Feels right.

 

I dont care to mess with convertors here.

 

From experience.... also ..... I already use conversion to from TP AES/EBU onto 75 Ohm coax so I can drive long AES lines. Been there... done all of that...Like it.. Agree....my challenge to you is the convert you are suggesting feels like less cable length. Media format conversion from Coax to TP will result in less transmission length.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

Arh well the moment we put robust coax down this as well it gets er.... huge.

I guess the plan here would be to run this new thing AND the 4 way coax systems we already have for the Digi Venue systems.

 

We really want 8 lines of traditional stuff for all the other adhoc ties we do. If we specify another custom hybrid then we need another 3Km!

 

Could you use baluns to convert the 75 ohm coax connections to 110 ohms twisted pair? This would mean that you could use the new cable on all your systems.

 

James.

[Simon Lewis]

Mark,

 

I read your post not long after reading the LSI article concerning Wigwam's return multi solution (Optocore).

 

Now this doesn't fully solve your issues(!), but I did wonder whether trying to pursue the CAT5 route is ultimately an evolutionary dead end?

 

Simon

[Mark Payne]

Hi Simon

 

Well the Optocore thing is fine if you WANT to do digital line systems. We dont WANT to do it, we are just doing it because that is the way the stuff works. An M7CL ES is ES, I cannot un-ES it ;-) The Roland REAC uses CAT5 and so does the new Digico D9, Allen and Heath iLive etc etc. We have no choice. So we are now working out the best way to facilitate and support this technology. This is what we do.

 

Also...

 

You can now download the cable spec here

 

http://www.sflgroup.co.uk/technical/SFL-Kl...Hybrid-Core.pdf

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

 

 

Mark,

 

I read your post not long after reading the LSI article concerning Wigwam's return multi solution (Optocore).

 

Now this doesn't fully solve your issues(!), but I did wonder whether trying to pursue the CAT5 route is ultimately an evolutionary dead end?

 

Simon

 

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Fine, I understand... but when we need 32A or 6SA at FOH we will run it.

The idea of this cable is to provide default power for "low current" technical audio. Ie Desk and Control.

 

If you make this cable do everything it will have 32A/3PH running down the middle!

 

M

 

 

 

Is 2.5mm^2 mains cable big enough? 16A will cover most occasions but would something like this need 32A cabling to allow for voltage drop over the length?

[dougjm]

What's the plan for each end, do you just have the connectors in a bag to go to FOH and similar on stage? Or a hard wired termination for stage? My worry would be that in transit to FOH one time a pair or cat5 cable gets damaged resulting in having to strip the whole of the multi back to repair the damage. I also like about 1.2m of length on breakouts for various reasons. I know various multi runs where this is not really a good idea as a bag - the tourline connectors barely survive sometimes depending on the enthusiasm of the crew!

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea a lot.

[Mark Payne]

Arh well we have done much thinking about this also.

 

Our answer has much to do with what you are saying but also to do with our miss-trust of RJ45, even when it is inside a Neutrik Ethercon.

 

The answer will be ... we will split out the mains to 16A ceeform.

The rest of it will go into an single 85pin VDM at both ends.

 

At the stage end we have a standardised panel, probably 2U. The ES (or other CAT5 protocol) dedicated audio data pair will be solder loom direct from the VDM to RJ45 in Ethercon Shell. These will always live attached in the ES kit. The two "spare" CAT5 will be chassis mounted Ethercons on the panel.

 

At the console end we will do the same thing. The 2U panel will live in the back of the console's dog box. Anain the ES part of it will stay connected.

 

In this way we will not degrade the RJ45 by repeat insersion.

All the crew pull aoung the ground will be a CeeForm and a VDM

 

M

 

 

 

What's the plan for each end, do you just have the connectors in a bag to go to FOH and similar on stage? Or a hard wired termination for stage? My worry would be that in transit to FOH one time a pair or cat5 cable gets damaged resulting in having to strip the whole of the multi back to repair the damage. I also like about 1.2m of length on breakouts for various reasons. I know various multi runs where this is not really a good idea as a bag - the tourline connectors barely survive sometimes depending on the enthusiasm of the crew!

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea a lot.

[mervaka]

Mark,

 

at that rate, wouldn't it just be easier to keep the mixrack at the FoH position and run an analogue multicore? it all seems rather pointless. if you're that worried about running parallel data lines then I'm sure something will come to market that encapsulates all manners of frame packets down one or two optical fibres. far easier than going back to the days of lugging fat cores!

 

also, do you necessarily need to run mains power all the time? copper is heavy, and mains cable contains a lot of copper. digital systems aren't bothered by mains path differences.

[handyandi]

Could you reliably connect solid core cat5 to a VDM connector. Even with the best cable clamp arrangement wouldn't they snap over time.

[Mark Payne]

Arh well now you have gone back full circle.

 

The point at the beginning of the post was to introduce the slightly bizzare "false hope" of the digital snake.

We are not asking if anyone thinks that this is a good idea (the digital snake). I am not arguing that it is better or worse than an analogue multi.

 

Assuming The M7CL ES, Digico D9 (yes you were all raving about it a few threads ago), the iLive, the Roland M400 et al are all techologies we want to use in the way they have been intended to be used..... we are bloody well going to use them to the best of our ability! And then we are going to create systems that make these things as bullet proof as we possibly can.

 

We have already accepted that this does not really save us anything in weight, size or even cost. We dont care about that. We have moved on already, it is what it is. We cannot put the technology back, it is upon us. Its just a different way of doing signal routing with advantages and disadvantages. Of couse we all have analogue cores and we will keep them. But we will do this other thing also.

 

We dont care about weight (to some degree). We care about reliability and facility (I am beginning to repeat myself, read the OP!)

We have systems of working. We are not about to somtimes do mains to FOH from "wherever we can get it" and sometimes take it from the production distro just because it saves 30Kg of copper.

 

So the challenge for forward thinking progressive audio companies...... We have to meet the technologies head on and learn. Then we integrate. Then we serve. Then we educate. Otherwise we go backwards.

 

We are going to do this ES thing in the best way possible so we can extract any potential benefit it brings. You only know a thing when you have used it. "We use what we sell and we sell what we use!" it's an SFL mantra.

 

Anyway who wants to buy this bloody genius cable with us ? ;-)

 

M

 

Mark,

 

at that rate, wouldn't it just be easier to keep the mixrack at the FoH position and run an analogue multicore? it all seems rather pointless. if you're that worried about running parallel data lines then I'm sure something will come to market that encapsulates all manners of frame packets down one or two optical fibres. far easier than going back to the days of lugging fat cores!

 

also, do you necessarily need to run mains power all the time? copper is heavy, and mains cable contains a lot of copper. digital systems aren't bothered by mains path differences.

 

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

 

 

Could you reliably connect solid core cat5 to a VDM connector. Even with the best cable clamp arrangement wouldn't they snap over time.

 

Yes we can.

AWG 24 is not made of glass! Its made of copper!

And when its in that VDM with all its mates its not going anywhere.

 

M

[RustyBrooks]

I'd want to see at least 24ways o proper copper on a gerneric all standards multicore. How does this potential multi compare price wise? My main concercern is if you do end up breaking one of the individual components, then the whole multi would have to be replaced, whereas individual components, despite being a little tricker for the locals to pull in, does have the advantage of only having to replace individual elements as you go... like the idea though.

[waster]

AWG 24 is not made of glass! Its made of copper!

And when its in that VDM with all its mates its not going anywhere.

 

HAHA. Love it!

 

This cable sounds interesting. If only yamaha had put some AES outputs on the stageboxes! Or as options.

 

The Pro6 ethernet tunnel is a good solution for regular network control of dsp etc through their AES50 system. Also the tie line system on it is well thought out.

 

Personally I'd just loom up an 8 way multi, 8 way cat 5 and your Power. Lighting now increasingly is using Artnet or similar due to the huge numbers of universes required, so an extra couple of lines for this is worth considering if your going to play together. You could still multipin the two 8ways and have rackmount breakout pannels at either end. It would also allow you to flip flop your yamahas or just have two out front for big channel counts from the same multi.

 

I would use 4mm2 or even 6mm2 TRS on a 100m run though. Keep the voltage from dropping and let you draw the 16amps if you need it. 4mm2 fits into 16a ceeforms but for 6mm2 it obviously gonna have to be a 32a ceeform. I've used jumpers to keep it at 16a ceeform each end but just to take advantage of the thicker copper.

 

As you say you not so worried about weight or bulk so looming the individual items seems best to me. I gues you'd be looking at no more than 500m of the cable so getting another 2500m worth of orders might be tricky. Have you tried some of the big boys to see if they are interested?

 

I came to you PM5D class a while back and remember talking to you about the Digidesign Desks. What made you take the plunge over just getting another 5D? Sorry OT! PM.

 

Keep pushing boudaries.

[Mark Payne]

Ok Rusty but a 24 pair multcore in a "digital + facility" core is overkill.

I can understand why the gig would need it so in that case we would run it in also. Alongside.

 

We want this to cover 90% of what we do in a core designed to be used with a CAT5 concept console. This is where the Ins and the Outs are all on stage already as part of the console package. We dont have to do it twice.

 

We have provided 8 lines of "audio" facility for things that are probably not even going to be audio in the strictest sense. The day we need to bang 16 lines of audio over to something for some reason we will pop a core in for that.

 

BTW I am note sure if our experience is common but we have never had any kind of core break in the middle. It is always cable termination and end damage. This guy will need repair now and again just like the rest of them.

 

M

 

I'd want to see at least 24ways o proper copper on a gerneric all standards multicore. How does this potential multi compare price wise? My main concercern is if you do end up breaking one of the individual components, then the whole multi would have to be replaced, whereas individual components, despite being a little tricker for the locals to pull in, does have the advantage of only having to replace individual elements as you go... like the idea though.

[mervaka]

you overlooked the first point in what I said. any data can theoretically be encapsulated into a higher bandwidth core, most likely at this point to be fibre. some solutions already facilitate ethernet over a proprietary link, and so in theory the same could be done for multiplexing many data lines down a single fibre optic link. how on earth do you think BT manage? ;)

 

sometimes multiplexing is better than multicore.