Check my spec please

[Mark M]

After my previous thread about the LED cans Ive decided to stick with the tradional route as I was concerned about the brightness of the LED cans.

 

So this is what I was thinking, its for a very basic setup that will be used once/twice a month ish in a drum warehouse where the stage is 5m x 2m. I was planning on buying most things from thomann unless there is somewhere better? Im trying to keep things to a minimum hence the budget/cr*p gear.

 

Ok here goes:

 

4 x par56 long cans

4 x Par 56 NSP 300 Wbulbs

4 x safetys

4 x C clamps

1 x SHOWTEC MULTIDIM MKII DMX UK VERS.

1 x STAIRVILLE DJ-X 16 DMX CONTROLLER

 

1 x hazer

1 x haze fluid

 

A couple of questions to go with all that,

 

1. What plugs come on the end of the cans? The dimmer is IEC so that obviously has to go on one end but what about the can end? Any recommendations? They will be permantely fixed.

 

2. What size cable should I use for the power? Any links to CPC or similar would be great so I can order a real.

 

3. Is the desk ok for what I want? Full on, black out, chase but with future expandability to add some DMX LED cans that I can use as mood lighting on the walls.

 

4. Is it best to make up the DMX lead between the dimmer and the desk (and LED fixtures in the future) If so a link to suitable cable would also be great.

 

Hopefully thats covered everything, all comments welcome.

 

Thanks, Mark

[musht]

Would personally reconsider LED, even the cheaper high power LED cans might work out better, just looking at your basic spec:

 

4* Par56 cans

 

4* 56 NSP, Narrow SPot, these really are narrow, they`ll just give you a small pool of light, very much a spot, great in quantity for heavy metal , but 4 isn`t going to cover the stage. Medium FLood, MFL more typical in this use.4 is still stretching it

 

Safetys and C clamps , great amazing how many people thing a can comes complete with lamp, clamp and safety

 

1* Showtec Multidim, won`t hear me moan about them, tough little dimmers for their price.

 

1* Stairville DJ16 Controller, not exactly Marmite because no one loves them but a cheap controller that will do chases.

On 4 cans a chase leaves a lot of dark though.

 

Didn`t specify hazer, have you a model in mind?

 

1. From Thomann typically Schuko have to cut it off or fit an adapter.

 

2. Unless you need to get through small holes or something, just get ready made IEC cables and put IECs on the cans..

 

3 Desk is alright, but a pain to program and has its own eccentricities, but its cheap, whether its good long term value depends on how far the lighting expands.

 

4. Its almost always cheaper to buy cables ready made, if its a long installed run, CAT5 network cable is preferred option, easiest to use standard RJ45 faceplates and XLR adapter either end, solid core cable dosen`t like being soldered.

 

 

Somehow kinda missed the other thread, but wouldn`t totally discount LED.

[Mark M]

Thanks for the reply.

 

The hazer I was looking at was just a cheapie STAIRVILLE SH-150 but I could stretch to STAIRVILLE SD-300 DUNSTERZEUGER if it was worth it?

 

So, back to LED cans, how far do they travel roughly? I still need to get exact dimensions of where the cans will be mounted but I would say 5-6m's away from the stage.

 

Im happy to go with LEDs providing they are going to be bright enough. If I scrap the dimmer I could probably get more cans and create a better effect.

 

Is there an alternate desk for the similar money? I really cant justify spending anymore as to be honest it will prbably be used more by us for jamming as apposed to anything that can bring in money ;)

[TomHoward]

I don't think I would like to throw an LED Par56 over 6m, but on the other hand even a 300W Par56 might be stuggling once you put a colour in it. If I were you I'd try to beg, steal or borrow at least a Par56 and a 64 and try them out with your positions - you might be persuaded to upgrade to either four Par 64s, or perhaps (given the width you have to cover) eight Par 56s (which would still run off a single 13A socket).

[paulears]

I think the idea to scrounge a few bits to try is a really sensible idea - LEDs often work quite well, as long as there are lots of them - I do know a venue where they use LED for a stage around that distance away and it's ok - but not really bright. The thing with buying conventional PARS is that if you wish to flash 3 colours, then only a third of them are on at any one time, but ALL the LEDs can be on - so 20 LED cans on Blue is quite bright, but only 6 or 7 500W PARS on Blue isn't - especially if they're focused apart to give width! Distribution of budget and running costs all need taking into account.

[Mark M]

Id love to be able to borrow some gear off someone but I wouldnt know where to start to be honest. I know of a few bands who have some gear but nothing more than par56 shorts and a few "DJ" effects.

 

I do fancy getting some LED cans to have a play around with and to maybe use for some mood lighting somewhere so could always buy a couple with the desk and if they arent bright enough buy a dimmer and the 4 cans (obviously 300 or 500W bulbs would be the problem there)

 

The thing is with the PAR 64 cans is that they are pretty big and I want the warehouse looking pretty slick so 4 hefty cans may look a bit out of place potentially. Not sure though, just thinking out loud really.

[TomHoward]

You could get the short nose Par64s, which probably aren't that much longer than a long nose Par56. Obviously they're a bit wider though.

I would consider eight Par56s as well, as the pars are pretty puncy in terms of light output - they're not a wide wash, they can be quite difficult and you'll need a few of them to blend the edges to give even coverage. If you're using chases as well you'll only have one Par56 on a time - which to be honest will lift it a bit but won't cover as such. Two might be a minimum.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

In terms of the bulb diameter we're only talking an inch more for a Par64 as well - Par56 is 7 inches, (56 eighths of an inch - 56/8=7) and a Par64 is eight. I'd probably still go with two 56s per channel though to give the coverage.

[Mark M]

Hmm interesting, they appear to be much bigger and chunkier. With the distance approx 5-6m would it not be better going for the long nose? Im purely basing this on the assumption that the short nose will not keep a beam as "tight" and therefore lose a lot before it gets to the stage? That maybe completely wrong though.

[TomHoward]

I'm not the right person to ask but my impression is that the lamp (NSP, MFL etc) will have more effect than whether it's a long or short nose can. The short nose may have a little more spill on the horizontal compared to a long nose can but I don't think the centre will be noticably brighter even if this spill is contained.

[Mark M]

Im not too fussed about spill on the stage, as long as you get to seem some beams through the haze I guess.

 

What about 4 short nose par 56's with the narrow bulbs and 4 -6 LED cans to light the stage up. I can mount these at the side of the mezanine floor so would be closer.

 

Would this much much easier with a plan of the building?

[musht]

Would this much much easier with a plan of the building?

 

 

Having difficulty picturing why the throw has to be 6m , so sketch plan/section would probably help,

 

Need to host an image elsewhere and post a link, www.imageshack.us is hassle free.

[TomHoward]

A couple of snapshots would probably also help picture what you've got planned. One the LED vs Par56 subject, since the dimmer could accomodate the additional Par56s it wouldn't take any more infrastructure to add them so it's probably a route I'd go down for the cost vs output when compared to LED cans to complement the inital four.

[Boggy]

Id love to be able to borrow some gear off someone but I wouldnt know where to start to be honest. I know of a few bands who have some gear but nothing more than par56 shorts and a few "DJ" effects.

 

I recommend talking to your local P.A. / lighting hire company (google or look in the phone book under theatrical or lighting). They will usually demonstrate lights in their warehouse and you may even decide to hire a few for a day to see how it looks in your warehouse. The contact will be useful if you ever want to hire gear to do a bigger gig. They may be able to sell you the gear you want and then you would have a local place for support. Hire companies also usually sell gaffer tape and gels. :P

[Mark M]

Ok, appologies for the paint sketches but hopefully it will give you a rough idea. Its not exactly to scale(!) either but the cans will be mounted on scaffolding poles on the side of the mez floor

 

Bottom floor:

 

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9514/groundfloorw.gif

 

 

Mezzanine floor:

 

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2471/mezzanine.gif

 

If anything, I could mount the cans 2 on the left and 2 on the right possibly? Which would bring them a lot closer to the stage?

[musht]

Thanks that makes it clearer.

 

Take it mezzanine dosent run right round for loading door or similar?

So no chance of extending a pipe across the air space?

 

Also guess that relative to stage mez isn`t that high, which means pars at the angle may well dazzle people on stage, higher is always better almost.

 

Side light is good, lighting from ends of mez allows lot shorter throw, and less direct in the eyes dazzle, even with asymetric mouting at either end , effect is going to be nicer than long and low focus.

Even go for booms, lights mouted vertically up a pipe at corners of mez.

 

LED can also be used as part of store display lighting when not in use for stage, low power consumption and long lamp life. Blues and greens add a nice sparkle to brightwork.