dwents Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Can anyone please help me we have a pub with a noise problem and a over zelious area manager with a db meter from maplin?we have a dj in this pub every friday and sat plus karaoke on a wedthe area manager turned up last night and created merry hell he insited the law states the db reading outside the pub must not be over 50db he sat there and measured and complaind the music was too loud as the db reading was 63db at this point the dj hadn't started and the 63db was ambient noise how can you work like this if your exceeding noise levels before you switch on a amp. can anyone shed some light on this subject I know it's a very grey area but some guide lines would be good idea of db max measurements in the pub at say the dancefloor and tehn say bar but also outside. please help me prove this area manager wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 For starters, "50db" on its own is absolutely meaningless. No mention of weighting, time integration, reference... And I'd be very surprised if there is any law that states anything about 50dB outside of a pub. Your local authority should be able to help clear up the facts. Limits are often imposed outside the nearest residential property rather than outside the source of the noise. Those limits will be defined in rather more detail than just "50db". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starstruck Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Also, if he is using a sound meter from Maplin then it probably isn't calibrated, therefore the reading may be complete cra#. All measurement equipment must be calibrated to a national standard otherwise the reading doesn't stand up in a court of law. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 In my experience, the Maplin-type meters are accurate to within a few dB when compared to an expensive, calibrated unit. No, they don't have any legal standing but are usually okay for an indicative reading--if you know what it is you have to read. The much more fundamental issue here is where the manager got that "50dB" figure from. Assuming A-weighting which is fairly standard for environmental measurements, that's a seriously low number. To put it in perspective, the interior of the theatre I most commonly work in most often usually reads between 54 and 60 dB(A) at the quietest without anything happening on stage, just from a bit of ventilation noise and people shuffling. It would be hard or impossible to achieve outside a pub with a music act...indeed, only the quietest of residential streets would achieve that even as a background noise. As soon as a car drives by, you'd be above that. It's my understanding (but I'm happy to be corrected) that there isn't a national definition of what constitutes a noise nuisance. Rather, I think the law gives local authorities to determine on a case by case basis what is an acceptable level and also define how and where this level is measured. Your first port of call is the Environmental Health Officer at your local authority to get some solid info to take back to the area manager. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 It's my understanding (but I'm happy to be corrected) that there isn't a national definition of what constitutes a noise nuisance. The standard is ( amongst others) the Environmental Protection Act 1990 Part III section 79. "Statutory nuisances and inspections therefor (1) Subject to subsections (2) to (6) below, the following matters constitute “statutory nuisances” for the purposes of this Part, that is to say— (g) noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;" Therefore the standard is that it is a nuisance. If the disco is in a city centre and no one complains, it's unlikely that the Local Authority Officer is likely to take action for envirnomental noise. He may wish to talk about Control of Noise at Work though! If the disco is near to residential properties or other retail properties that do not like the noise levels, then the LAO can investigate and use his or her professional judgement as to whether it constitutes a noise nuisance. If the pub is part of a retail facility (as seems to be implied) there may be locally assumed limits. It may not appear fair, but it's hard to argue if you are effectively on private land. If the local council have reponded to a complaint and have set a limit at the nearest dwelling, it is usually stated as x dB(A) for a given Leq (i.e. averaged over a certain time) at 2m from the dwelling's facade. It is not unusual for such limits to be lower than the ambient noise levels up to (say) 11pm. As Bobbsy suggests, contacting the LA is your first step. The only sound level meter they will believe in is theirs, so it's no use saying that the area manager's kit is poor. Even if you have a class 1 B&K, they'll still believe their meter is better ;-) 50dBLAeq (5 min) is not an unusual limit. You need to get your local authority onside if you want to get anywhere with this... Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwents Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Thanks for the advice I have spoken to EHO awaiting a meeting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Do let us know their response and what the real facts of the case (as they see it) are! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Adam Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 It sounds like the area manager may be unknowingly opening up a can of worms for himself. Whilst an EHO will want to know what sort of levels are coming from the pub during opening hours (and the above is correct that if there is a problem - via complaints - then you'd likely already know about it.), they are usually far more concerned about the noise the punters make upon leaving the premises, and the route they take when leaving. The pub / complex may have just been left alone if no direct complaints have come in, but problems can usually be found when people start looking. I hope for your sake that the EHO uses a good helping of common sense (they usually do), otherwise you'll have to ask everyone in the pub to whisper and make sure the air con is switched off to get below any "50db" level plucked from the sky. The problem is, if this guy is the overall "manager" then he may want to impose the limit anyway - especially if you try to "prove him wrong". Egos are a funny thing. I too am very interested in the outcome of this. We often re-address our noise control based on issues that other venues come across. good luck. after all - where would we all be without pub entertainment?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 after all - where would we all be without pub entertainment?? probably in theatres :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanborrowman Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Is the area manager trying to cause a problem? Are people complaining? If they aren't I would leave things be rather trying to create a problem that doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Is the area manager trying to cause a problem? From the first post.... the area manager turned up last night and created merry hell he insited the law states the db reading outside the pub must not be over 50db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Where would we be? In the pub more often. My choice of local back in the UK was invariably a place without even a juke box, much less live entertainment. Live sound is work, quiet is recreation! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Where would we be? In the pub more often. My choice of local back in the UK was invariably a place without even a juke box, much less live entertainment. Live sound is work, quiet is recreation! BobI'm with you Bob! But judging by the number of pubs with Karaoke nights in certain city centres we may be in the minority. Then again, look at the success of Wetherspoons, I don't think it is all down to cheap beer. Different strokes for different folks. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Adam Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Live sound is work, quiet is recreation! Bob Sorry I should have been clearer. I agree. 100%, but a large majority of blue roomers are pub / club entertainers and make a living from that sort of thing - so this forum would be a quiet place with out them. Me, I'm a home drinker. My locals are all now of the "trendy" pub types with just the barman's choice of music - which is usually pretty naff. Why pay a DJ, when an Ipod will mix it all for you? Now there's a thread!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 .....a large majority of blue roomers are pub / club entertainers and make a living from that sort of thing - so this forum would be a quiet place with out them. ....Er, what???I'd dispute that quite vehemently.The majority of serious blue room contributors are regular pro and/or am-dram theatre folks.A goodly measure of teen wannabes who may do 'mates discos' as well as school productions as well.Full time DJs and pub/club entartainers I'd say would be in the minority..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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