Analogue Vs Digital

[BlueShift]

Moderation: This has been split from another topic, and put into it's own as it contains handy comment and information - the original topic was this one.

 

I would second the vote for a small digital console, although I'd take a Roland M400 over an LS9 any day (in some cases, this being a good example, id take an M400 over an M7 too).

 

In addition to working on large scale events, festivals and conferences, I production manage a programme that tours through schools with a system that covers audiences that range in size from 150 to 1000 people in a variety of venues. For this programme (which seems fairly similar to your requirements) the Roland offered many benefits over the Yamaha. Firstly, in a side by side comparison, it sounded a fair bit better than an LS9 (IMO). The digital snake saves much van space, and the configuration we have - 2 16x8 stage boxes - keeps onstage cable runs short and gives us more usable outputs than the LS9 (16 onstage, 8 at FOH). our entire FOH setup with AV lighting and sound uses a multicore made up of 4 cat5 cables and 10A power. 60m of it fits on a reel that can easily be carried with one hand.

 

We also went with the d&b C7 PA. its a great system, and is in another league than the martin - but you pay for it too. its not cheap, but it does sound excellent and is fairly portable and extremely power efficient.

[mervaka]

your engineer sounds like a dinosaur.

[charlyfarly]

your engineer sounds like a dinosaur.

I'm afraid that is exactly the sort of comment that irritates the hell out of "old skool" engineers.

 

I've been mixing for 22 years now and when digital boards first came out I was very wary of them. Why? My first experience on a brand new on the market Innovason was that the system tech accidentally wiped my entire soundcheck 10 minutes before the band was due on stage. I had no personal memory stick because the desk was supplied as a last minute "surprise" when we arrived at the venue. I was not a particularly happy bunny. The second chance was on a Yamaha PM1d at a live TV broadcast, again a thoroughly daunting experience and that put me off the things for a very long time; "no digital" was my mantra on the tech riders!

A year or so ago I decided that this was getting silly and I had to seize the bull by the horns and just accept and go with the flow and last year I felt happy enough to add certain digital brands to the rider.

 

Now for Singhardip's engineer; I know exactly how he feels. It is made worse when you have young (or old) people crowing "But it's soooo eeeasy!"....it's not. It's daunting with all these layers (which to be fair you can arrange your channel set-up so you don't have to go digging for that important channel) and rotary encoders and user-defined buttons etc. ;)

 

As has been pointed out it is now important that engineers, old and young, need to be able to embrace digital. As analogue desks become old and expensive to repair they are being replaced by digital products with their "all in" packages.

Turning up and finding one of the beasts unexpectedly is a nerve-wracking experience and hiring an analogue hits you in the pocket but there is a bit of homework you can do:

1. Attend a hands-on seminar that are given by the manufacturers if they are close to where you live.

2. Do you know someone who works in a PA warehouse or venue who can spare a couple of hours to guide you round the functions using a playback source.

3. Yamaha Pro Audio have some neat little demo films for all their models. http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/training/sel...ning/index.html

4. Wet hire a digital desk for a gig with a nice, patient system tech to guide you!

 

It's also interesting to note that the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury this year had two Midas XL4's and a H1000 at FOH, because it was the most demanded desk on riders. It was up to bands if they wanted to bring a digital. It was the other way round in previous years. Interesting ;)

 

As to product: The LS9 is very portable and light...you can carry it under your arm!

The M7CL is a nice little desk with all your channel faders on the surface in front of you and a touch screen.

The Soundcraft vi4/6 is a superb sounding desk (my favourite) and has a very nice "analogue" visual approach and has the latest Lexicon FX but is a bit of a wallet buster! The Si range is a bit cheaper but you have no screen.

[mervaka]

I really don't understand what's hard to grasp about layers, rotary encoders etc? your first experience sounds like either a butterfingered system tech, or a prematurely released desk. you can't write off digital just because the learning curve's a bit steep. okay, the layouts of digital boards are very varied at the moment, I'll admit that, but that's because analogue boards are just so limited in the routing and layout by physical constraints.

 

I dont think the digital 'revolution' stops here, either. soon, I can see us operating touchscreens, large and small. people will be able to operate a mix engine in whatever manner they wish to.

[Bobbsy]

What's the thing in the middle between dinosaur and mammal....because, on this debate, that's me.

 

Let me start by saying, for my own use, I'm fully sold on digital. I sold my last analogue mixer a while back and only own digital...in my case some Yamaha stuff though, if I was buying today (and if I had the money), I agree with Charlyfarly about the Vi6...a lovely mixer.

 

However, despite being sold on digital when it's my mixer or at least one I know well, if I was going to walk up to a strange desk and do a job I'd still rather have analogue. There are too many differences between mixers (even different models from the same manufacturer) for an engineer to say "I'm completely comfortable with digital" and not specify a list of makes and models. However, even if you are completely up to speed on a mixer, there are also too many setup options. If somebody else has setup all the internal routings it's entirely possible to be caught out with a whole series of "gotchas". I hate mixing on a digital board if I haven't programmed it from scratch myself.

 

So where does this leave things? Well, in the situation that started this topic before it was split, I still agree that digital...probably the M7...would be the way to go. This is a mixer to travel with a band and be operated by one engineer who would have the time to programme it how he likes and be super familiar with this set up. In both cost and feature terms, the digital option makes sense and it may be a bit unfair of the "old school" engineer to force his prejudices on the band in question.

 

However, I'm also with Charlyfarly when she posts that digital is not the universal solution--for the poor engineer on a "walk up to the board and mix" gig, big analogue still has advantages.

 

Bob

[berry120]

I'm pretty much with Bob on this one, IMHO there's a time and a place for both digital and analogue. For large scale stuff, I definitely think digital is the way to go if it's not there already - the extra flexibility it provides is just unmatched by anything analogue, the ability to SAVE things especially! It's also far more cost / space effective than buying a huge analogue desk and several racks of outboard. True there's a learning curve associated with it, but I actually prefer going through a couple of menus to change an effect / eq setting on a particular channel than fumbling through racks of outboard trying to find the right knob to twist. Though that's just a personal thing, I'm aware of more than one person that prefers it the other way around! Perhaps in the future we'll see manufacturers standardising more on the format of digital desks - it'd be good to get to the point where an engineer COULD say that he's comfortable with a "standard" digital desk! Of course there's also the old adage that there's simply more to go wrong on a digital desk, but I think we've got to the stage now where the chances of a well serviced, good digital desk packing up are pretty slim.

 

However, I don't think analogue is disappearing anywhere any time soon. Sometimes analogue is simply more cost effective than digital and digital just isn't needed - the thought that all the little 2 channel Behringer mixers will one day come with touchscreens just seems like an over engineered solution to a non existant problem! Similarly, smaller churches and suchlike don't need lots (if any) outboard, and for this situation it seems like a cheap and cheerful analogue desk would be hard to beat.

 

So overall, I do think digital will pretty much take over analogue in some situations, I certainly think it'll spread further than it has already - but I still think analogue will hold its place in some areas, even if there's not very many of them.

[mervaka]

I can agree that at present, analogue desks are still very cost effective at the smaller scale, and are much more standardised in their layout. In the future however, production costs will inevitably come down to a certain extent, and I'm sure some sort of standard will emerge for those who still want it, and that standard will be far more efficient than any analogue standard could ever be.

 

my label of 'dinosaurs' isn't a blanket label for older engineers, but those who can't and won't embrace the present and future merits of digital, and would rather stick their heads in the sand as the tide comes in.

[Doug Siddons]

Inevitably us "older engineers" are going to have to embrace digital or retire! The advantage of analogue from recent experience is I didn't have to use my glasses as much as I do on a digital

 

That aside digital represents real cost savings in smaller formats which can't be ignored in this climate. With regards to ease of use I would argue that both formats can be as daunting as each other for inexperienced and experienced users. Grappling with the bank of aux/goup/matrix/pfl ect rotaries and switches on the centre of a big desk is as perplexing as working out your routing on a screen, although in the digital world you can ignore the functions your not going to use, not so easy in analogue where there is a big red button begging to be pushed! The real problem with digital is, initially, getting your head round each manufacturers vocabulary and how they implement things. That statement can equally be applied to analogue desks!

[BlueShift]

ha! I cant believe I inadvertently kicked off the old analogue vs digital debate again when the purpose of my post was actually to talk about what was best solution for the band in question.

 

My riders always have both on, because any decent engineer in this day and age, who wants to find consistant work, needs to be familiar with as much of the breadth of equipment available as possible. These days, thats analogue and digital. I have worked hard to be able to say that I can comfortably find my way around all the popular analogue and digital consoles currently on the market - and that is a valuable asset.

 

As the old addage goes - only a bad workman blames his tools.

 

I do of course understand the frustration of a surprise piece of gear on a tour, but that is not really an analogue vs digital debate - thats a 'please read the rider!' debate

 

The other issue that comes into play here is stereotyping or dismissing a whole concept because of one bad experience. at the end of the day - I have probably made some of my best mic or equipment choices by accident. Eg, I hadn't planned to use 'insert-name-of-gear-here' but it was there and I gave it a go.

 

In 2009 we are way beyond one format sounding better or touring better. a good engineer should be able to get a rocking sound out of a H4000 or a Venue, both are very very capable tools...

[RustyBrooks]

As the old addage goes - only a bad workman blames his tools.

 

 

Have you heard the difference between some of the proper brand digital desks and an proper analogue desk? With a good system, an XL4 will still whip everything else in pure dynamics, and quality! But you need a million people to move it and the gubbins, shame

[berry120]

Have you heard the difference between some of the proper brand digital desks and an proper analogue desk? With a good system, an XL4 will still whip everything else in pure dynamics, and quality! But you need a million people to move it and the gubbins, shame

See, I wouldn't necessarily say that was the case - perhaps your ears are just a lot better than mine! I've never done a head to head comparison with an XL4 and a good digital desk, but I can't say I've noticed any difference in sonic quality mixing on a good analogue desk as oppose to a good digital one with the same setup.

 

The earlier digital desks that used a lower sampling rate did IMHO sound noticeably worse than a good analogue, but I do think digital desks have advanced to the point where the sonic differences are pretty negligable. Then again, if we were having this discussion 10-15 years ago I'd suspect people's opinions would be quite different overall!

[Bobbsy]

Have you heard the difference between some of the proper brand digital desks and an proper analogue desk? With a good system, an XL4 will still whip everything else in pure dynamics, and quality! But you need a million people to move it and the gubbins, shame

 

Yes, and if you have a decent system you can hear them. When the local receiving house changed from an H2000 to a Pro6 I took the chance to take my DM1000 along for a "shoot out". In absolute sound quality, the Pro6 actually won, with the H2000 a close second and my DM1000 third. However, all of us agreed that the differences were of the sort that 99.9% of people would never hear, particularly without the chance we had to do an A/B/C comparison.

 

If we factored in the prices--the Pro6 was more than ten times the cost of my DM1000 for 48 channels--then things got interesting!

 

Frankly, if I had to describe the differences, it was a bit akin to a comparison of vinyl vs. CD on a good system. At its best, I prefer the vinyl sound, but....

[Kevin Ross]

I don't think that analogue desks are going anywhere any time soon. I still own a analogue desk but 99% of the time I will take the digital desk out IF it is only me mixing. For example we had to provide a PA for a county fair for the weekend. I would be engineering it on Friday night (as TV was there) and the other days it was let up to some with very limited experience. I took 2 desks over and I mixed on the digital and when that night was over I swapped it out for an analogue one.

 

For that reason alone I think analogue is here to stay. I'm not bothered either way I will mix on anything that is put in front of me if I'm a guest engineer.

[jason.fallon]

I'm Quite partial to "Digilogue"....Seems to get a good result with an LS9 Through a Midas Analogue console. Takes a bit of that digital edge off it. Doesnt always work though, I mainly use it for mixing Radios

 

J

[TomHoward]

I'm Quite partial to "Digilogue"....Seems to get a good result with an LS9 Through a Midas Analogue console. Takes a bit of that digital edge off it. Doesnt always work though, I mainly use it for mixing Radios

 

J

Could you expand on how you'd have those two set up together?