Scary Day

[slim_mcslim]

I have just returned from an outdoor festival in Boston (riot capital of britain) but thats another story, that will develop a whole new thread!!!

 

Its interesting to read what people have made of my post, as I am not saying that HAWSA is complete rubbish, just that it makes certain tasks unworkable in practicality, as such I mean simple tasks like climbing a ladder to hang a lantern, which is now a two man job, or maybe a three man job if you need to use a tower, lifting anything that weighs more than 20kgs is now a 2 man job where it wasn't previously, that is where my annoyance lies with the over complicated safety procedures.

 

Regarding comments on pyrotechnics, yes you could regard me as competent, because I have never had an accident, and I am aware that accidents do happen and contrary to what some would believe in this post I do say NO to people sometimes, especially when wanting to use maroons without a bomb tank!!! However I know of 3 firework companies, all of whom produce excellent displays, company 1 uses off the shelf fireworks, and a couple of guys lighting them in sequence, company 2 uses custom built fireworks, with an electronic firing system and can operate it all from the touch of a button, company 3 uses very large custom built fireworks, which are fired by a mad man running round lighting them and legging it. All of these companies being equal and all charging a similar amount for similar shows, then Which one of these is the best company?

 

Company 2 I hear you all cry

 

However which one of these has cocked up 2 shows due to computer error, I'll give you a clue, its not 1 or 3.

 

And to clarify, by LOLER course I mean any one of the professional rigging courses run by the large rigging companies (unusal/road runner etc) where they teach you how to rig and give you a full understanding of the LOLER requirements, I was not implying that there is a specific course to learn LOLER or any official certification (yet)

 

There are very few official qualifications for the whole industry, however there are a lot of people teaching, and a lot of new regulations coming into force year by year, which most of the regulations aren't designed specifically to trip us up, they are designed to combat more "dodgier" areas of related industries, for example (and its a bit of a wide example) goods vehicle operators licences, these where introduced to try and bring some regulation to the haulage industry, however because the government couldn't just bring in a specific haulage licenese, the rules apply to any heavy goods vehicle, but in order to hire a 7.5t you need an operators licence, but filling the form out is a mockery in itself, because it is geared at hauliers and operators only, I have recently filled out an 8 page form by writing N/A in every section, and at the end of this and £600 later they will give me an operators license (however I have no intention of owning any trucks - I just have to have one)

 

Anyway that is enough of my rambling....

 

Paul..

[gareth]

I know of 3 firework companies, all of whom produce excellent displays, company 1 uses off the shelf fireworks, and a couple of guys lighting them in sequence, company 2 uses custom built fireworks, with an electronic firing system and can operate it all from the touch of a button, company 3 uses very large custom built fireworks, which are fired by a mad man running round lighting them and legging it.  All of these companies being equal and all charging a similar amount for similar shows, then Which one of these is the best company? 

 

Company 2 I hear you all cry

 

However which one of these has cocked up 2 shows due to computer error, I'll give you a clue, its not 1 or 3.

 

Electronic firing systems, but computer failure? Let's get it right - are you talking about an electronic firing system or a computerised one? They're different beasts. The company that I fire shows for has both - they have several PyroMate (electronic) systems, which are about as reliable as you can get (the only time they generally fail, and it's rarely, is if one of the main cables or one of the out-boxes is seriously damaged by a misfire, a low break, etc.). And they also have a Fire One computerised firing system, which runs on a laptop and fires cues via (I think) the serial port to a decoder unit - I've only ever done one show with them which had a Fire One system on it, and it quite spectacularly failed to work!

 

The majority of reputable fireworks companies use electronic, rather than computerised, firing systems for all but the biggest of shows.

 

Not quite sure I like the sound of the 'mad man' firing company 3's shows ....

[slim_mcslim]

I don't know exactly the software that they use, but they utilise a computer system to set the show to music, the audio playback is from computer, and you view the wave form in a window, and set points on the waveform when you wish certain effects to fire. ( I have to admit I have never seen it fail, I have seen it once and it worked the show that I saw it on, I was just informed of its failiure by a couple of the other guys at the show)

[MartinT]

Having read all the post here - I still don't think this question has been answered - which way up is the correct way for 3 way truss?

 

I used to work for a company who made it and as far as I was concerned there wasnt' an up or down (for loads) the diagonal bracing of the truss give both compressional and tensile strength hence it should be able to be rigged either way. In fact corners were supplied as standard for apex up or down.

 

I'm not ring to suggest there's been a mistake in Big Dave first post as I'm not a rigger and it wouldn't be the first time that a manufacturer has misunderstood their own product (not saying a word) I'm just asking this from an education standpoint (for my own benefit ) If there is a right/wrong way can you please explain why (in lampie terms)

[Tomo]

Its interesting to read what people have made of my post, as I am not saying that HAWSA is complete rubbish, just that it makes certain tasks unworkable in practicality, as such I mean simple tasks like climbing a ladder to hang a lantern, which is now a two man job, or maybe a three man job if you need to use a tower...

Are you really happy working at a height with nobody about?

And may I ask how exactly you built a tower on your own?

lifting anything that weighs more than 20kgs is now a 2 man job where it wasn't previously...

Not true! Most DEFINATELY not true.

The lifting part of the regs states that nobody should be asked to lift something they do not feel capable of doing. There is NO fixed limit, although they have published some guideline limits which they feel that the majority of people will feel comfortable within.

 

For example:

Popeye over here is happy to carry four bits of 8x4 steeldeck on his own.

Tiny Tim over there can only manage a lampshade as a two-man lift.

 

The regs also say that the regularity of the lift is important as well - if you only have to lift it once an hour, you can probably lift more than if you had to do it every minute.

Regarding comments on pyrotechnics, yes you could regard me as competent, because I have never had an accident...

I've never had a pyrotechnic accident either. But I do not consider myself competent to risk assess pyrotechnics - to rig, arm and fire, possibly, but only under the guidance of a suitable risk assessment and preferably a fully competent individual.

[slim_mcslim]

Are you really happy working at a height with nobody about?

Personally I am not always happy about it, although I have worked with a number of people who are more than happy and confident to get on with the job in hand.

 

And may I ask how exactly you built a tower on your own?

Zip Up towers are quite easy to build on your own, I can provide a diagram of how to do it (but that would be another topic), however there is an element of Popyeness to hauling the decks up single handidly, we have a 4ft sectional steel tower that is really easy to build on your own, and that has no decks, just wooden planks that slot in, to form a deck out of.

 

As regarding lifting regs, I can't for the life of me remember where I read the 20kg limit, and I have never read anything regarding frequency of the lifts, could someone please advise me of where I can find the full reg's on this then, as what I have seen in the past, was a sheet of bullet points, certainly nothing official.

 

only under the guidance of a suitable risk assessment and preferably a fully competent individual

I would still call myself competent, I feel that I can quite happily plan and risk assess pyrotechnics on a standard scale, eg a couple of effects during a conference or awards show, I am certainly not professing to be a pyrotechnic designer, nor would I even attempt to undertake the risk assessment for the pyrotechnics for a large show (eg opening of olympic games)

[Brian]

Having read all the post here - I still don't think this question has been answered - which way up is the correct way for 3 way truss?

 

The correct way up is the one which your design calculations prove won't fail.

[Tom]

As regarding lifting regs, I can't for the life of me remember where I read the 20kg limit, and I have never read anything regarding frequency of the lifts, could someone please advise me of where I can find the full reg's on this then, as what I have seen in the past, was a sheet of bullet points, certainly nothing official.

 

Maybe you should have a look at this from the HSE site. (Manual Handling Assessment Charts)

[JohnK]

I have just returned from an outdoor festival in Boston (riot capital of britain) but thats another story, that will develop a whole new thread!!!

 

This bit intriques me. So what's the story?

 

John

[Chris Higgs]

To quote slim mcslim:

And to clarify, by LOLER course I mean any one of the professional rigging courses run by the large rigging companies (unusal/road runner etc) where they teach you how to rig and give you a full understanding of the LOLER requirements, I was not implying that there is a specific course to learn LOLER or any official certification (yet)

 

 

AFAIK there are currently only 2 'rigging' courses regularly available in the UK.

They are run by Safe Working Ltd and Total Fabrications Ltd.

These two companies are the founders of what is hoped will become the national rigging certificate. I can't answer for Wolf, but I would be interested to hear from him if he is running courses.

The ABTT offer some theatre flying courses for hemp/counterweight houses.

None of these courses will make you qualified or competent but will provide evidence of training at whatever level you attend.

[Chris Higgs]

There is no such thing as a 'qualified' rigger either - yet!  - It's coming, I promise...

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

there actually is.

I spend many years working in the petrochemical construction industry and Rigging is a recognised trade, with qualifications and training.

 

that was where I did my training in rigging.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutely, likewise the telecomms and others, but not in terms of entertainment rigging. With the greatest respect to all in the petrochemical industry, IMHO they would not be any more competent to rig in the entertainment industry than entertainment riggers would be to work in the oil industry without a good deal of experience in the field first.

This is of particular relevance with regard to using and slinging trusses, flying scenery and rigging to structures not originally intended for rigging.

However, the level of basic safety awareness for lifting operations in other industries is something the entertainment industry could learn from!

 

Training, legally, has to be adequate for the work in hand, therefore 'industrial' training is not enough by itself.

One of the reasons I started training people in this industry is because there are so few 'industrial' companies who really understand the work we do.

CITB used to run a very good course, but our indutsry has moved and CITB don't do that course any more.

Another important thing is that the 'riggers' are often 'height workers' not riggers.

Define rigging?

We need people from within our industry to train or the trainers cannot be truly competent. I encounter this problem all the time and frequently get asked to deliver the 'specialised' bits after other providers have done the LOLER or 'physics' that applies to pretty much any lifting operation.

It is the application as much as the content. Knowledge, skill and experience.

 

I would be interested to know what courses you did and how/why they helped, obviously having a vested interest, in fact I have recently been involved in matching a 'non entertainment' training provider and a very large theatre.

E mail me by all means.

[Chris Higgs]

I have just had a re-read of this thread.

The view that to adhere to 'the Act' (HaSaWa) is impossible/difficult seems too frequent to me.

Perlease!

Most trades are finding they have to demonstrate competence in even tendering for work (and even if they don't, the awareness of clients is increasing) and that some form of on-site checking is taking place.

The whole health and safety deal is based on the idea of reasonable-ness.

It does not expect anything spectacular unless you are staging a spectacular.

'Measures need to be proportionate to the level of risk' is a good phrase to remember when thinking what you should be doing. That is to say, where there is a high risk - falls, electrocution, fire etc., you must take appropriate steps. Where there is little risk, common sense prevails.

You need to be competent in the area of work you are doing. That is the relevant knowledge, skill and experience of a task to enable you to predict the outcome of any action before it becomes a hazard to you or anyone else.

Unless you have an accident (statistically unlikely, in fact) or get a spot check (increasingly less likely) safety inspection by the venue (more common than ever) or an insurance risk survey (very common indeed) you will never know what you are doing 'wrong' unless you research it. If you are working in amateur, small scale or school theatres, it is less likely that any of these eventualities will occur.

 

Statements like 'you can't use a ladder any more' and 'the only way to rig an xxxx is xxxxx' and the like are just plain wrong. One poster states he uses a steel sectional tower with drop in boards. Zarges may be safer! That is precisely the thinking HSE want us to use. Assess the hazards and the risks and select personnel and equipment accordingly. If you don't know, don't make it up.

If you don't have the kit for whatever reason, you might have to forget it and leave the lights on the floor. I have done enough shows in enough toilets where I decided the risks outweighed the benefits. 'It's only a rock and roll show', 'The kids'll love it', 'You don't go home whilstling the rigging' etc..

'Good evening Mr. Sinatra/Ferry/Bedingfield, I'm afraid that tonight you won't have any front light, but on the other hand tomorrow we will all be in XXXXXX ready to do another show, rather than in hospital/prison and mental torment that we were bullied into hanging a truss when we knew we shouldn't.....'

The only people who know what the show should look like are people in it and around it. It is a shame to drop your standards, but sometimes you have to.

 

Believe me, the more available equipment and information becomes, the more severe the penalties will become because there is no excuse any more.

As 'nix said somne months ago, this industry has got away with it for too long. There are good guys being compromised, bad guys getting rich while they are lucky and some guys in blissful ignorance about the whole thing.

 

You can do a quick Google to verify virtually any of the safety related posts on this forum. If you can't discover it that way, there are subscription sites (hsedirect is a good one, or even manufacturers you could contact) that a school or college should be able to manage.

Read the 'six pack', the LOLER and PUWER ACoPs, do some training courses (ABTT, PLASA, or sector specific, etc) then post your views!

This was not supposed to be a book, sorry.....

[enbee]

My opinion has allways been that I would rather rig something the safe way first off than have to derig and rerig before a show. It generally doesn't take much longer to do it the right way. As far as I have found (in my limited experience) h&S are very good at coming up with random things for you to change which don't really need done so why add to the list by having the fundamentals wrong. Although there are times when the H&S rules make doing something almost impossible there is almost allways another way to make sure its safe and complies.

I have to say that I have allways seen the job of designing a show to be interesting because every venue is different and comes with its own set of problems. I've met far to many people who claim to be lighting designers or riggers who try to rig every show in exactly the same way regardless of the restraints of a building. The H&S rules are in my mind a restraint of the building and cannot be ignored.

In terms of personal safety then I'm inclined to say that its entirely up to the person doing the job. if you break rules about ladders then that is your choice and if you have an accident then you have no grounds to complain but when members of the public are involved we have a responsibility. there is a fair chance that the punters do not even know the risks they face.

[Brian]

In terms of personal safety then I'm inclined to say that its entirely up to the person doing the job. if you break rules about ladders then that is your choice and if you have an accident then you have no grounds to complain but when members of the public are involved we have a responsibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My issue with this arguement is that, in my experience, people who have a scant regard for their own safety also have scant regard for other peoples safety. It would be virtually impossible to work 'safely' when there is a risk to others and 'unsafely' when no-one but yourself might get hurt.

 

For instance, what happens when you fall off that ladder and land on someone else?

 

I know it's not theatre related but look what happened when that guy fell off the ladder he was on whilst trimming his hedge. He fell onto his wife whilst holding the chainsaw and killed her.

 

The only realistic way to work is to always do things properly.

[enbee]

fair point Brian

 

I guess I'm blessed with the fact that at most of the rigs I do there's just me and my noise boy. thats the prize I get for the lack of big gigs and pay!!!!