benhyman Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hello everyone! I would like to conduct a bit of a survey. I'm looking to build up a list of small line arrays, specifically with 10" drivers.It would be great to compile a list of Manufacturer and model + personal opinions. What's good / bad about them? Easy to fly? Quality of the sound? SPL? Easy to pack / store? Expensive / cheap etc.. What amps / processors are driving it? What are the sort of events where it's being used? Later this year, I'm planning to organise a shoot-out between them - if anybody would like to participate / visit & listen, then please let me know! I'll start the ball rolling: Kling & Freitag Sequenza 10Link to website2 x 10" + 3 x 1"SPL - 138dBWeight - 34kg per module List Price:Sequenza 10: £5,200Sequenza 10 Sub: £4650 Powered by: Lab Gruppen FP1000Q & K&F CD44 Controllers Great sounding line array - instantly recognisable as a K&F system. Ground stack or fly - really quick and easy. Only takes about 10 minutes to fly 12 boxes.Not the cheapest to buy, but the K&F reputation for quality is growing in the UK, and the number of users is increasing reasonably quickly too! K&F is a great competitor to D&B - very similar products, better sounding, and priced more competitively. Looks very clean and corporate. Events of interest:You'll hear the line array this year at Wakestock Festival on the 2nd stage. Flown 12 boxes per side with for ~3500.Just been out on tour with ELO - The Orchestra - groundstacked 6 boxes + 3 x K&F ACCESS B10 subs per side for audiences ~350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappie Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Personally, I wouldn't really call line arrays with 10" drivers "small". I would think small would be 6-8", medium being 10"ish and large 12"+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispuxley Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hello everyone!I would like to conduct a bit of a survey. ---I'm looking to build up a list of small line arrays, specifically with 10" drivers.It would be great to compile a list of Manufacturer and model + personal opinions. What's good / bad about them? Easy to fly? Quality of the sound? SPL? Easy to pack / store? Expensive / cheap etc.. What amps / processors are driving it? What are the sort of events where it's being used?---Later this year, I'm planning to organise a shoot-out between them - if anybody would like to participate / visit & listen, then please let me know!---Great sounding line array - instantly recognisable as a K&F system. Ground stack or fly - really quick and easy. Only takes about 10 minutes to fly 12 boxes.Not the cheapest to buy, but the K&F reputation for quality is growing in the UK, and the number of users is increasing reasonably quickly too! K&F is a great competitor to D&B - very similar products, better sounding, and priced more competitively. Looks very clean and corporate.This doesn't sound like a survey - it sounds like an advert. As UK distributor for K&F are you sure your comment 'better sounding than d&b' is entirely unbiased? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benhyman Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Everyone is entitled to their own personal opinion! The purpose of this survey is to find out what everybody is using and compare the specs. If we can then organise a shoot-out between them, then surely it would be an excellent learning curve for all of us? As I asked for personal opinions, please state equipment you are familiar using, and why it's good..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Your comment would have been preceded with IMO had it been an opinion. Sorry, I'm with Chris on that one. I've heard K&F stuff though not the boxes in question. Without doubt some of the best boxes I've heard. IMO a probable competitor to D&B as far as sound quality goes. Of course you have to take other things into account, such as rider friendliness. If you're touring with a D&B rig, the chances are both YOU and who's paying you likes it. Sadly people don't give you any chance to show them a rig from a less well known manufacturer so sometimes, even though a system (to mine or your ears) may well sound better, it might be easier to fly (no idea how it compares to Q and J) it is not a viable option due to it being less well known. It's also interesting how you say it is priced more competitively. I'm unaware of D&B's list prices, as they're irrelevant to anything and everything. However, if we look at the Martin Audio mini line array (as we are talking mini/small line array here) then you'd be silly to pay more than £1500-£1600 a box for the tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Ben, Although not everyone will have access to it, the American 'Live Sound' magazine compiles such lists quite often. The issue of shoot outs is often vexed and problematic. Creating the conditions where each competes on a level playing field is difficult, and such issues as input level matching etc. can have disproprtionate effects upon subjective opinions. We often tend to (subconsciously) like the louder speaker. Knowing what the boxes are is a problem for the listener and the demonstrator - body language or simply the badge can give the game away. There's a need for double blind tests if there is to be any element of objectivity. Of course, manufacturers would be welcome to come and set their systems up, but final settings (level matching etc.) and actual testing would have to be undertaken by an independent third party to eliminate accusations of bias and subjectivity. As the UK distributor for the K&F boxes, I suspect you know exactly what the competition has to sell, their strengths and weaknesses and the popularly held "view" of those products. Asking for "answers to a survey" is somewhat disingenuous ;-) Comparative loudspeaker tests can be very worthwhile. Manufacturer's demo sessions can also be very worth while. However, the latter masquerading as the former simply might not wash with many interested parties. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRead Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Agree with Chris and Rob on this one, also looks like you want everyone to do your homework for you!!!! There are a lot of good manufacturers out there at the moment, I use a Martin system of my own but have used lots of others be it point source boxes or line arrays and most are very good know a days. Rob hit the nail on the head d&b is being specified on riders and if you want is the system of choice by most at the moment. so its a pretty bold statement your making and comes probably more from the fact that you are working for VME and distribute K & F than actually having used the other systems (I may be wrong and yes everyone is entitled to their opioin) so I would recommend trying the other systems first. My assumption is made from the fact that you want to get other manufacturers together for a shoot out so you can hear them, which in many respects I think you could end up a little red faced. I freelance for a number of companies and 1 of them has the dbtechnologies line array, which is not the best out there, but IMO is not bad when you consider the price, small rental companies will buy it as it fits their budget. Its not going to be on the Rider for U2 or any big names world tours but it will be used by some well known artists, if they are doing a small personal apperance so good luck to them. I have also used the VMB system which wasn't to bad but again its not listed on riders. It takes a while to get that that status. I have seen on here as well a number of posts on the RCF TT systems again a very good system I have used the TTL33-A and to be honest that IMO is certainly a very good sounding speaker, its light even though its fully active, don't know what it costs, but it has a good name behind it that most engineers know, but again I don't see it on riders although I think that its only a matter of time. Just my thoughts... Simon Just my Opion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackerr Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Ben, Although not everyone will have access to it, the American 'Live Sound' magazine compiles such lists quite often.Yes, it is disingenuous to make that post without stating any affiliation. The Live Sound Magazine list is available on line here. Since it is a list of "mini" line array elements, there are no 10" drivers. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappie Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 And the medium line-array article is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMitchell Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Kling & Freitag Sequenza 10Link to website2 x 10" + 3 x 1"SPL - 138dBWeight - 34kg per module List Price:Sequenza 10: £5,200Sequenza 10 Sub: £4650 Powered by: Lab Gruppen FP1000Q & K&F CD44 Controllers Great sounding line array - instantly recognisable as a K&F system. Ground stack or fly - really quick and easy. Only takes about 10 minutes to fly 12 boxes.Not the cheapest to buy, but the K&F reputation for quality is growing in the UK, and the number of users is increasing reasonably quickly too! K&F is a great competitor to D&B - very similar products, better sounding, and priced more competitively. Hi Ben Am I missing something? The mid high boxes look comparable to Q1, except they are 12kg heavier and unless K&F trade discount is like 50% off list, I can't see how you can say they're priced "more competitively". That 2x15 sub box doesn't compare to a like for like D&B box, however the Q-SUB is lighter, cheaper and is rated at the same maximum SPL. I'm sure they are great sounding boxes, I'm just struggling with the D&B comparison. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Max. SPL (sinus burst 185 msec @ 10% THD) 134.5 dB RMS, 138 dB peak (1 x SEQUENZA 10) 134dBspl for 185 milliseconds at 10% distortion? And what about the continuous maximum SPL at a slightly less painful distortion figure? It's difficult to make meaningful comparisons with a skewed playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Another annoying use of RMS, when it doesn't mean what most people associate with RMS. Very similar to amplifier power outputs, 2 x 40billion watts RMS. (the continuous figure being 2 x 16watts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMitchell Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Very similar to amplifier power outputs, 2 x 40billion watts RMS. (the continuous figure being 2 x 16watts) is that the MC2 E40B you're on about, Rob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Owen Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 10% THD? I'd rather not if you don't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Very similar to amplifier power outputs, 2 x 40billion watts RMS. (the continuous figure being 2 x 16watts) is that the MC2 E40B you're on about, Rob? No particular manufacturer or product, just what seems to be increasingly common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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