Par Safes - Legal requirement?

[Ike]

...and how does the person "awarding" the CE mark know it meats the necercary standards?

[Brian]

To quote from the official EU journal (OJEC; 95/C 326/50)...

 

'The CE marking can be described as a "passport for industrial products" allowing them to circulate freely throughout the European Economic Area (EEA). It is a MANDATORY conformity marking which shows the compliance of products with all provisions of 16 Directives which relate to safety, public health, consumer protection, or other essential requirements of community interest.'

 

If one purchased a non-CE approved item...

It should not be possible to purchase a non CE marked item for use in the EU unless it is something that cannot be CE maked (components for example).

 

Please note there is no such thing as CE approval, it's 'CE Marking'.

 

Although if your selling a product made in the same country as it's being sold it doesn't need a CE mark!

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

 

...and how does the person "awarding" the CE mark know it meats the necercary standards?

because that are obliged to carry out such tests as are necessary to make sure they do. Or pay for an external test house to do so. The standards are published in every country in the EU, they are (in the main) clear and unambiguous about what is required.

[Ike]

...and how does the person "awarding" the CE mark know it meats the necercary standards?

because that are obliged to carry out such tests as are necessary to make sure they do. Or pay for an external test house to do so. The standards are published in every country in the EU, they are (in the main) clear and unambiguous about what is required.

As far as I was aware most products must comply with many different standards and the hard bits is knowing which ones. I do however agree completely with your other comments.

[Brian]

As far as I was aware most products must comply with many different standards and the hard bits is knowing which ones.

Exactly and more than one manufacturer/importer has been caught out by choosing the wrong standard.

 

There are essentially two types of rules to conform to...

Directives

Standards

 

The Directives set out what is to be achieved. For most entertainment kit we are concerned with 2 (maybe 3) directives...

 

Low Voltage Equipment Directive 73/23/EEC

Electromagnetic Comaptibility Directive 89/336/EEC

(maybe) Safety of Machinery Directive 98/37/EC

 

The Standards then set limits for a piece of equipment and there are various standards for different types of kit. So, for instance, when choosing a standard to claim conformity to the Low Voltage Directive you could choose between...

 

EN60065 Mains operated electronic equipment for household and similar use

EN60950 Safety for IT equipment including business equipment

EN60598-1 General requirement for luminaires

 

and many more.

[paulears]

If the ceramic and wiring are in good condition, the back of the ceramic is securely in place, the conductors have braided sleeving fitted, the earth tests OK and it all works, what aspect of the PAT test would you fail it on?

 

As I see the test - mains leads should have two layers of insulation - once the outer is removed to split to the terminals you've gone down to one layer which is touchable - and hence should fail. I realise this is mainly part of the visual test looking for scuffs and gaps in the outer sheath - but as the inners are visible and accessable the fact that this is inside is immaterial? If the conductors have the extra sheathing fitted properly, then this would seem to satisfy the test condition - however - I found 3 that had no extra insulation at all.

[paulears]

One says if one can touch the lamp holder then an instant PAT test failure.... someone else says not!

You're totally correct - everyone will have a different opinion. To be fair, that's why the ABTT made the safety section 'members only' ages ago. As far as it goes, everyone has their own limits to how far they'll go, based on their own interpretation of 'rules'. The snag seems to be that the rules are designed to be generic - applying as much to a PAR as to a fridge. This means they never give specifics on anything! This puts the onus onto the users to ensure compliance. Many larger organisations attempt to tighten up their in house systems and implement draconian systems to ensure safety. They rarely seem to work.

 

As for the PAR question - is it safe with just the ceramic. Maybe or maybe not I'm afraid, is still the correct answer. It depends on the case in point, there and then, by the person doing the test. If I test something I stand by my decision. If someone else has tested it - I go by theirs - EVEN if it seems wrong. It would be very foolish to decide something is safe once someone else had said unsafe - could you be sure? Know any good lawyers?

 

As for the ABTT trying to sort it out - I doubt they would be daft enough to try.

 

The best we can do for now is share information freely and then make up our own minds, based on our own competence, not others.

 

sorry for the length of the reply - but I thinks it's important.

[Brian]

The snag seems to be that the rules are designed to be generic - applying as much to a PAR as to a fridge.

Fridges should comply with EN60335-2-24

PARs should comply with EN60598-1, EN60598-2-1 and EN60598-2-5

[paulears]

sorry - I hadn't meant to be that explicit. I meant generic as in not at all specific. If you excuse the low res of the pic, here is one of the PARs I have trouble in saying is safe.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v164/paulears/PAR_64_CERAMIC_CU.jpg

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v164/paulears/PAR_64_CERAMIC_DIST.jpg

[WiLL]

The only thing I can possibly add about the ceramics is avoid the 'rewirable wiring kits' that are still knocking around for sale. I think maybe from RS but I could be wrong, they have little electrical 'screw-grip' fittings so that you can easily re-wire the lamp or something. Anyway, all I know is, if you put your hand in to rotate the lamp and rest your precious flesh against both of the tops of the screws (which is possible) then be prepared to see blue fireworks. Been there, done that, glad I was only ten feet up a vertical ladder and not forty feet up a tally. :)

[gareth]

If you excuse the low res of the pic, here is one of the PARs I have trouble in saying is safe.

{images snipped}

That patch of lighter colour at the ceramic end of the neutral looks a little suspicious - is the sheath wearing a bit thin there? Also, does that earth wire actually connect to anywhere?! I'm sure it does, but it's not clear in the pic! :)

 

Anyway, back to the matter in hand ... if the fixture in the pics had some braided sleeving running the full length of the exposed live and neutral cores, then as long as it has a good earth, no physical faults, etc. I see no reason why it should fail a PAT. However, it's not a rewirable ceramic, so you're not going to be able to get any sleeving on there - and in its current state I don't think I'd call it safe. there's too much chance of one of the cores accquiring a small break in the sheath which would expose live conductors (this usually happens at the point where the core enters the ceramic, which is why I asked the earlier question about the sheath of the neutral ...).

[Brian]

As an interesting exercise you only need to complain to trading standards if you think a new CE marked product is not safe. They have to investigate.

[paulears]

That patch of lighter colour at the ceramic end of the neutral looks a little suspicious - is the sheath wearing a bit thin there? Also, does that earth wire actually connect to anywhere?! I'm sure it does, but it's not clear in the pic! :)

Nice one Gareth - Yep, the sheath is wearing slightly and the earth terminates just behind the mains lead. With this particular type I agree with you that there really isn't any simple method of sorting it out. It just shows what rubbish gets pushed out when rules change. I seem to remember buying a few of these at a ridiculous price and hanging them up in a permanent install. I would imagine they just got removed and put back into normal stock. The worrying thing was that no one noticed they were different!

[Ike]

We have quite a lot of those, some are as shown but on other we have either dismantled them and fitted extra sleaving (pain in the arse as it means recrimping the connections) or wraping them with fibre glass self adesive tape.

[Guest lightnix]

Surely it's not just a question of electrical safety here. Ceramics get extremely hot after a very short time, so there is also the risk of getting some nasty burns if you touch one that's been on for even just a minute or two.

 

As we've said before: if you are in any doubt about the safety of the equipment you are given to work with, refuse to use it. It's not just your right, but your responsibility to do so.

 

I was on a show, where one of the lampies put his hand into the back of a parcan that wasn't even up, but just on pre-heat. A single strand of conductor was sticking out from the ceramic and gave him the kind of belt which left him unable let go. It took over a minute (probably the longest of his life) for someone to get to the power to kill the system, after which he was taken to hospital for overnight observation.

[Ellis]

CE Marking:

 

When a company develops a product that must be CE marked, they must gather together evidence (type testing certificates, product specifications, blills of materials, component specifications, list of applicable standards, etc) that the product complies with all the standards that apply to the product.

 

As standards change, evidence should be added for new versions of the product and the production process updated.

 

It is only in the event of an investigation that the existence of this file and the accuracy of its contents will be verified.

 

CE marking is mandatory for products being retailled. it is not mandatory for Trade sales. A trade purchaser could purchase no-marked products gather the evidence for marking and mark the product themselves (have you ever seen the CE sticker on the packaging of a chinese made product - added by the importer).

 

The CE mark is not a European equivalent of the old kite-mark.

 

Consequently a CE mark is not worth anything in reality. Your only reliable way of ensuring that you are using a safe product (or be able to prove good faith) is to buy a reputable make from a reputable supplier, obtain a certificate of conformity and file it away.

 

CE should really stand for Caveat Emptor (Let the buyer beware)

 

Isn't self certification a wonderful thing!