New lighting desk

[muzz26]

Hi,

 

We have had enough of our palette classic 2's with them having way to many faults and being unreliable and so are looking for a new board. We need it to run 150 generics and a few itelligents (our intelligent rig is looking at being a lot bigger and better within the year). We are a recieving house and a university so need a board that can be used daily by students and take the 4 shows a week that we have coming in (music gigs/dance and theatre). It needs to be as bomb proof as possible for students to use and also have the capability for us in house techs to do pretty much eveything with. Any suggestions - I like the look of the Leap frog but another technician here doesn't like how frogs operate?

 

Thanks, Murray

[Joe Bleasdale]

How about a Road Hog? http://www.highend.com/products/controller...dHogConsole.asp The software and hardware is about as fool proof as it gets. Where abous are you located? The console will output 4 universes, so you have plenty. It also has a very competative retail price for a console of its ability.

 

If you would like to look into the wholehog range, please PM me and we can sort something out.

[dunk_1984]

Your budget might be an idea.

 

However I'd be looking at Pearl, Vista, Chamsys, ETC territory.

 

For example, Pearl Tiger - £3500 and small, admittedly lacking on the theatre stacking functions, but it is usable. Just depends on your users and main usage.

[nateflips]

Hi,

 

We have had enough of our palette classic 2's with them having way to many faults and being unreliable and so are looking for a new board. We need it to run 150 generics and a few itelligents (our intelligent rig is looking at being a lot bigger and better within the year). We are a recieving house and a university so need a board that can be used daily by students and take the 4 shows a week that we have coming in (music gigs/dance and theatre). It needs to be as bomb proof as possible for students to use and also have the capability for us in house techs to do pretty much eveything with. Any suggestions - I like the look of the Leap frog but another technician here doesn't like how frogs operate?

 

Thanks, Murray

 

Have you thought of an Avolites Pearl. Simple to use with excellent moving capabilities. Theatre stack is a bit strung out but once you get your head around it your laughing. All round excellent desk. Even a Pearl tiger is the Dogs b**lox

Just noticed Dunk_1984 beat me to it...

[smalljoshua]

For everyone recommending a Pearl. The theatre stack isn't its strong point, the OP states that it needs to be able to do theatre well.

 

I personally think the MagicQ is a very powerful and expandable desk.

 

Josh

[Paul Joines]

Hi I work in a similar venue, and we've been looking to upgrade our Bullfrog.

 

So far we've had a Tiger and an ION in for demo'ing, and while I liked them both, they both had flaws. The pearl as mentioned is a bit clanky for theatre stuff (and doesnt like older dimmers except with manual correction), and the ION is rubbish at chases and effects stuff - eg its possible but causes headaches, although this apparently is being improved through software updates.

 

I probably would pick ION over the Tiger, mainly as it offers command line programming and a modern format of console, but actually both desks made me and my students like the frog even more, and its an original, not a leapfrog or frog 2. I think Leapfrog is worth considering, but many people are put off by Zero 88 not having the credibility of say Avolites or ETC. Not many Pro's give the desks the time of day - so do they really know what they're like?

 

Actually, the frogs do everything you could want pretty much..

 

MA's and Hogs are way out of budget, - any other suggestions?

[James Remo]

I probably would pick ION over the Tiger, mainly as it offers command line programming....

 

The pearl does command line programming... that number pad aint only there for timed pallets y'know :D

[muzz26]

Hi -

 

Thanks for all the replies so far. I have seen many people asking about budget. I believe we have a budget of near £3000 for each desk (we would need two as we have two proffesional venues). I know that this isn't loads of money for a decent board but we prob could expand on this. Obviously everyone would like an MA but for what we currently do that would be serious overkill - however inputting media onto led panels may be something we would look at for a few shows.

 

Thanks, Murray

[rmarchand]

Hi there,

 

I'm sure you've probably done this anyway, but have you asked the end users of the lighting desks? Is there one that comes up regularly on technical advances? Also, where does the majority of it's use lie, mainly theatre, rock and roll or dance?

 

For busking a rock and roll show, even dance shows I would whole heartedly reccomend the Avolites range. They are so widely used, with about 5 minutes with someone who knows the desk you can be underway, about 15 minutes with a manual and you can do it on your own. It's really simple to use, great for busking and fantastic for bunging a show in in about 30 minutes. That said, as other users have already pointed out, it takes a while to get your head around Avo's theatre stack, which works quite differently to many other theatrical lighting desks, and if theatre makes up the majority of your desk time I would probably steer clear. Chamsys desks need a little more set up time in my experience, but when they're going they're absolutely amazing. They have a growing reputation and I'm seeing more and more of them coming through our venue. Chamsys seem to have the best bits of Avo Pearl and Hog combined into the desk. The best bit is it's an expandable system, so if initially you can only afford the pc version and a DMX dongle, you can then get a PC wing, and slowly grow to a small desk and so on.

 

If you do predominantly theatre stuff then personally I would be looking very seriously at ETC, with it's recent install in the Royal Opera House, the Eos is really helping keep ETC's name at the forefront of theatrical lighting technology, and it's younger brother the Ion follows up the Eos well. Having had the Ion demoed it seems great for theatre, but I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole for offering to a touring LD who needs to quickly program and busk a rock and roll show - but that's just because I don't like how it programs - definitely set up for theatre. Just seems a long process to put anything into the desk, and in order to offer flexibility for touring LD's and to make it bombproof for student op's I'm not certain it's the best option. The last thing you want is to have to program the entire show for a visiting LD as they can't be bothered to get their head around another operating style.

 

Personally, I have only a small amount of desk experience with the fat frog range. This desk seems perfect for the school market, deals with generics very well and has a very simple and fairly intuitive user interface. However, as pointed out above, it's reputation as a "kid's" lighting desk preceeds it. Whether this is right or wrong, the strength of reputation in this industry is amazing, and given you receive 4 shows a week, including no doubt some that aren't carrying their own desk, I think you'll find a large number of LD's/op's who are unwilling to consider using the desk. You may find yourself hiring in other desks, an unnecessary expense if you can afford to buy a slightly more expensive desk with a (if not justified) better reputation than Zero 88 carries with a number of people within the industry.

 

Sorry about the ramble, and obviously there are loads of other desks out there, Strands, Jands, Martin etc, so just try and get as many demo's as you can. Ask your local dealer, or give someone like Stage Electrics, White Light or AC Lighting a call, I'm sure they'll all be very willing to demo/sell you a desk!

[Davethsparky]

If you are getting two desks might it be a good idea to get two different desks? that way you can change them between spaces as needed. If you could get one that is better for theatre work and one that is better for live work then you may find it useful. Also if this is for student use it will be of benefit to them to learn about and gain experience in the use of two different desks instead of just the one. Although it may also create more work for those who have to maintain them / do the teaching.

 

If you go down this route I would recommend a pearl as the live desk, in my experience they have proven to be almost bomb proof and the support from avolites is excellent.

However I wouldn't recommend it if you are going to get two the same as it is not good for regular theatre use.

[smalljoshua]

Along those lines...

 

How about an Tiger and an ORB?

 

They are targeted at the 2 types of show that you need them for and will give the students a lot of variety.

 

Josh

[Strand77]

Along those lines...

 

How about an Tiger and an ORB?

 

They are targeted at the 2 types of show that you need them for and will give the students a lot of variety.

 

Josh

 

Indeed Have a look at the link below the Orb has been redesigned. Looks a lot like the old strand 520 desks

 

http://www.orbdesk.com/

[gareth]

There was a thread very recently, with someone looking for a new lighting desk at almost exactly the same budget as yours - probably worth a search in the lighting forum to find that thread, much useful stuff is contained within.

 

At that sort of budget, for a desk aimed primarily at theatre use, which students will be able to get to grips with and which, at the same time, is something that a visiting technician will be happy to see in the control room, I'd say you should be looking quite closely at ETC Congo Jr or Ion. Anything by Avo, while they're great as busking desks, I wouldn't give the time of day in a theatre scenario. I like Chamsys desks a lot, but for that sort of money you're not going to find an MQ100, which would be the best choice from that range.

 

But find the other thread, read it, and absorb the nuggets of information contained therein - especially the comments about the importance of getting plenty of hands-on time with any desks that you're considering. (Edit to add : the comments about the wildly varying quality of advice generated by questions such as this one are also probably worth heeding ... :D)

[ryandell]

Hi There,

 

I would like to suggest the Frog 2. Having just spent a lot of time with the desk, I believe I can feasibly recommend and give you my experiences of the desk and seeing the requirements you gave I thought this desk might be an option. And seeing as the desk covers the two applications it is slightly over budget for the combined budget.

 

Firstly the Frog 2 has 4 DMX universes, so it should cater for 150 generics and moving lights, with room for some expansion. The frog 2, when used with touch screens has a user friendly busking system, being able to access multiple palettes with a touch of the screen. This means that you would be able to cater for some live situations; maybe not as well as the avo but still it would be fine for busking use. Whilst having a wide busking compatibility the Frog 2 also has 100 pages of 10 cue stacks. This makes it a very considerable option for theatre, as I found out with some of the macro functions coming in handy with multiple effect sequences scattered across various playbacks. There are also 100 pages of 20 universal definable keys, which are as they say there are universal so programming anything onto them is handy for quick access to fixtures pallets and effects. The desk also has 100 pages of universally definable faders so these can store scenes and effects and can be tied in a 1:1 format with the cue stack.

 

The Desk also has move on dark function, which I chose not to use. Whilst I was using the console I found that the effect generator was a time saving way of creating a few base chases, these are easily accessible as mentioned before when used in conjunction with a touch screen. The beamshape options also include random strobes and pulses when tagging several fixtures in an effect. Whilst you can simply create a chase with the preset effect palettes in the desk, you can also create effects on each of the playback/cue stacks, recording multiple steps with generics and moving lights and simply converting to a chase.

Whilst programming the lighting desk a few notes came up, when priming moving lights in the old fashion sense of setting position, colour and beamshape then setting dimmer to 0, this means the desk renders the fixture as not used and therefore does not tag this in the cue, but this can be easily fixed when the smart tag function is taken off of the desk. Also there are multiple options for parameter tagging, tracking and whether to record cue only or snapshot. These functions can be mixed within a cue stack meaning you can prime in blackouts with snapshots then track during a cue fade up. The navigation and behaviour of the desk, is some what like the hog desks, whilst not exactly the same some principles of navigation are alike.

The only function that I miss on the desk after having used a 520i is the following, a Rem Dim hard key is something I miss when having someone on the desk operating during a focus, It’s not a major one but still a nice function to have.

 

All in all I think that this desk might be one you could consider, the desk has 4 DMX universes, Time code ports, Midi ports and Artnet, which is an Ethernet option for the desk.

 

Any questions on the desk feel free to drop me a PM

 

Thanks,

 

Ryan Dell

[Simon Brockwell]

Two words - Jands Hog.

 

Specifically the 1000, the 500 being more of a small studio desk with only 8 playbacks.

Cheap, cheerful, easy to use, it has the powerful Hog 2 operating system, which is argubly the best lighting operating system ever put into production and is the basis for later consoles such as Flying Pig's Road Hog (another great desk). The advantage over the much more expensive flying pig hardware is the lack of touch screens which are horrificly difficult and expensive to replace if the get broken. The dissadvantage is the lack of touch screens as on the Jands everything is hidden on soft keys, but its not much bother once you know what you are doing. Brilliant theatre stack prgramming plus 16 playbacks for your rock'n'roll shows. These desks go for about £3000 new which is dirt cheap for the capabilities of the desk. It outputs on 2 universes which is more than enough for your rig. The hardware is bulletproof, only problems I have encountered are occasional slow down whilst patching, no idea why. Also the keyboard and mouse which are essential for programming are on 5 pin DIN and serial connectors, although these are cheap to buy.

 

Alternatively go for a Chamsys MagiQ which is undoubtedly the future of lighting control, and as a cheeky bonus you can warp shows from Hog consoles (chamsys know the hog system is good you see :D)

Although the MagiQ is amazingly great it could be over complicated for a student show. Prices are reasonable but they aint as cheap as a Hog 100 from Jands.

 

Cant go wrong with any avoiltes console (except the azure) they are all brilliant and the easiest desks to use. Only problem is theatre stack is practically non existent. However if you are any good on a console you wont need it.

 

The wouldnt touch with a bargepole would include anything with zero88, ETC, MA or strand written on it. All horrible. Urgh. Dont for the love of god buy a Frog, they are useless. Avoid the ETC congo at all costs too. The manual is over 1000 pages long and tells you nothing! MA desks are ugly to look at and ugly to use. Also the (pointless) motorized faders break down all the time.

 

Hope this helps.