15A in educational premises!!!!!

[m1nky]

Ok a little background.

We have been asked look into a local theatre to sign off their electrical system ( thankfully the stage only!!!!!) and their dimming system, which was promptly condemned and the supply removed to make it safe. This project is mostly for love and little money, just trying to keep the community spirit going. The whole building is in need of a major refit and the first thing you think when you see it is knock it down and start again (not an option).

 

Attached to the theatre is a school of performing arts which use the theatre about 4 times a year along with a couple of amateur dramatics groups that pop in and out.

 

The first thing on our agenda is the first PAT test in about 5 years along with making the stage safe to use.

They have 27 ex rental lanterns with unsleeved 15a plugs on them, normally we would class this as fine but this is where the disagreement has started between a colleague and me.

 

As this is a school and there is no technician or technically skilled people and the fact they are hiring this kit to the public

 

should the 15a plugs be changed to shielded pins???

 

I know the installation regs don't technically apply but...

bs7671 states: 553.1.1 note 2

 

'Except for SELV circuits, it shall not be possible for any pin of a plug to make contact with any live contact of its associated socket outlet

while any other pin of the plug is exposed.'

 

Any thoughts on this would be helpful.

[paulears]

Sleeved pins are required in domestic installations, and as the 15A plug is not a domestic connector, my understanding is that there is no reason to consider replacing the plugs apart from the possibility that small (or even chunky) fingers pulling out a stiff plug could touch the pins. I've done it, and I suspect others have too. 16A connectors don't have shuttered sockets, so small fingers could be stuck in those, and these too are found in venues all over - let alone the bigger size ones!

 

So if you wish to add a layer of extra safety, fine - but I doubt it's something to be concerned about. I'd guess there's far more risk in untrained people getting up to and hanging the kit, rather than plugging/unplugging.

[Dmills]

I would tend to concur, you could, and it might even buy you a little extra safety, but that is surely a call for the venue operators to make after a risk assessment.

 

There may even be simpler and cheaper measures that would achieve equivalent safety, turning the racks off while plugging up for example. I might be inclined to point out that there may be a may be a risk here, and that they may wish to consider doing something about it either via a suitable risk management procedure or replacement, but I do not see an automatic requirement to do it.

As a contractor, I might point out the potential risk, but only that it was a potential risk, there is IMHO no justification for failing it on those grounds.

 

Regards, Dan.

[Light Console]

BS 1363 (13A plug tops) requires the pins of the plugs to be sleeved. The legislation is not retrospective, so the plugs do not have to be replaced now. However, the plugs cannot be reused after removal from their current appliances.

 

In my school, I will replace any unsleeved plugs on the end of a science PSU, boom box, or the like. Older extention leads in the admin office however are ok. (The fact that said plug is behind a cupboard is though!)

 

I am not too sure what the BS (something like 564? don't have one to hand!) for 15A plugs states. I would, and do pass them. There again, the kids ask if the power is off before we start anything anyway.

[The Yellow Transit]

As your signing off the installation a Periodic inspection report will be issued ,in observations and recommendations tick box "the following observations are made"mention the plug pins and code it 4 dose not comply with BS771:2008 This dose not imply that the electrical installation inspected is unsafe

 

now if your pa testing them you may have to fail them, although they are part of the stage lighting and could be considered part of the installation , as the definition of a portable appliance is " electrical equipment which is moved whilse in operation or which can easily be moved from one place to another while connected to the supply " so in theory you dont have to pat them as most fittings wouldnt be moved when on and due to short leads you cant move them from one place to another while plugged in . but you will have test each fitting as part of the periodic test ,either plugged into the rig or use a pa tester, catch 22 .

I would therefore consider them part of the installation and list it in the periodic report

[boswell]

, as the definition of a portable appliance is " electrical equipment which is moved whilse in operation or which can easily be moved from one place to another while connected to the supply "

Where do you get that from? I can't find that in COP V3 for In Service inspection & Testing.

The COP does cover built in cookers, freezers etc which would be excluded according to your definition.

[adam2]

IMHO the plugs should be replaced, although it could be argued that no regulation requires this.

The cost is minimal for a decided improved in safety, especialy if the equipment is liable to be used by untrained persons, or children with small fingers.

 

If finances do not permit even this, then it might be acceptable to use the old plugs if a rule is made and enforced that the dimmers are turned before anything is touched.

 

I believe that theatre lanterns if fitted with a plug and capable of being moved, as these are, should be PAT tested.

This is normally done anually, though some other interval may be deemed suitable on a case by case basis.

[Brian]

... or which can easily be moved from one place to another while connected to the supply ...

which is the definition of 'portable equipment' but not 'portable appliance'. Confused?

[Ynot]

IMHO the plugs should be replaced, although it could be argued that no regulation requires this.

The cost is minimal for a decided improved in safety, especialy if the equipment is liable to be used by untrained persons, or children with small fingers.

 

If finances do not permit even this, then it might be acceptable to use the old plugs if a rule is made and enforced that the dimmers are turned before anything is touched.

Actually, I'll challenge your first statement if I may.

 

The potential cost of replacing plugs is potentially far higher than just chopping one off and reconnecting a new. Assuming this is a school environment, then electrical work needs/must be carried out by approved contractors. They will need to (most likely) ascend to any lanterns in the grid to remove all kit to the deck, carry out the replacement, PAT each individual item then return it to the grid.

That's not a five minute job and will likely be charged accordingly.

 

The other bit I'd challenge is the point about 'small children' using theatre type kit.

Sorry, but were I in education, small children wouldn't be in a ten mile radius of any theatre kit. I wouldn't be expecting any under the age of 14, say, to have even a passing notion of the kit (and before anyone shouts I know that there are some out there who DO). And after 14 I'd be making sure that they have a practical knowledge of how to plug kit in properly (though I suspect few schools would let ANY student up a ladder to do so at height anyway).

 

And it is reasonably good practice to connect/disconnect kit from dimmed outlets with the controls at zero, anyway.

 

My personal take on the OPs question is to leave well alone unless there's a need to check/change the plugs as a matter of course. There is, I believe, not any legislation that insists that you do them otherwise as existing kit.

[adam2]

If an approved contractor was engaged to remove the lanterns, change the plugs, PATtest, and re-rig, the costs could inddeed be very substantial.

However PAT testing is generaly accepted as a requirement, and this would require that the lanterns be brought to floor level for examination and testing.

Changing the plugs could be done very cheaply at the same time, either by the person doing the PAT testing, or by a member of the school staff.

Even a school student can change a plug, ESPECIALY if this is done imediatly before a formal test, this would preclude any chance of a miswired plug being put to use.

[Robin Pratt]

Just a small point - Duraplug, as far as I'm aware, still don't make 15A plugs with sleeved pins, so you'd probably have to go over to the hard white plastic type 15A plugs as sold in most electrical wholesalers. These may in fact be considered a downgrade, because they're 1, brittle and easily cracked and 2, white not black.

 

I think (someone confirm please) Permaplug make a black rubber 15A with sleeved pins, (as fitted to Selecon products from new), but they don't appear to be as widely available as the Duraplugs

[Richard Bunting]

Just a small point - Duraplug, as far as I'm aware, still don't make 15A plugs with sleeved pins, so you'd probably have to go over to the hard white plastic type 15A plugs as sold in most electrical wholesalers. These may in fact be considered a downgrade, because they're 1, brittle and easily cracked and 2, white not black.

 

I think (someone confirm please) Permaplug make a black rubber 15A with sleeved pins, (as fitted to Selecon products from new), but they don't appear to be as widely available as the Duraplugs

 

 

From Permaplug website:

 

HDPT15B Supplied in counter display box with sleeved pins, black 10

Manufactured to BS 546

Supplied in counter display box

 

Google shows that quite a few companies sell these include one @ 98p each!

 

HTH

 

Richard

[The Yellow Transit]

, as the definition of a portable appliance is " electrical equipment which is moved whilse in operation or which can easily be moved from one place to another while connected to the supply "

Where do you get that from? I can't find that in COP V3 for In Service inspection & Testing.

The COP does cover built in cookers, freezers etc which would be excluded according to your definition.

The definition is in the front of the BS7671 wiring regs under portable equipment and if the equipment is built in its not portable and would be tested as part of the wiring as a fixed appliance

[Ynot]

, as the definition of a portable appliance is " electrical equipment which is moved whilse in operation or which can easily be moved from one place to another while connected to the supply "

Where do you get that from? I can't find that in COP V3 for In Service inspection & Testing.

The COP does cover built in cookers, freezers etc which would be excluded according to your definition.

The definition is in the front of the BS7671 wiring regs under portable equipment and if the equipment is built in its not portable and would be tested as part of the wiring as a fixed appliance

Hmmm...

But theatre lanterns CAN be moved whilst plugged in. (Maybe not adviseable, but...)

I can be up a scaff/talle/whatever and unclamp a lantern with a 1m lead and move it up to 2m away from it's original position whilst it's actually powered up if I wish.

I can also, of course unplug it and take it to the other end of the venue.

What's not portable there?

 

I think I see what you're trying to say, in that if the venue has a standard rig where the majority of kit seldom if ever moves from it's hanging point then it may perhaps be deemed as 'fixed', but I don't think that's necessarily a good interpretation of the regs per se.

[adam2]

I think I see what you're trying to say, in that if the venue has a standard rig where the majority of kit seldom if ever moves from it's hanging point then it may perhaps be deemed as 'fixed', but I don't think that's necessarily a good interpretation of the regs per se.

 

Whilst opinions differ, my view is that if the lanterns are part of a standard rig, seldom or never moved, then PAT testing is still required, since the lanterns could be moved.

A case could be made though for increasing the interval between tests, perhaps to 2 or even 3 years, from the traditional yearly test.

 

In my experience, most of the wear and damage occurs when lanterns are moved, and perhaps dropped or knocked, the plugs trodden on, the flex perhaps pulled etc. Lanterns seldom or never moved are much less likely to suffer thus.

Likewise, in my view, lanterns locked in a store room and not used (but available for use) still need PAT testing but at longer intervals than ones in everyday use.

 

On a long running show, I see no need to anually de-rig, test and re-rig lanterns that stay in the same position, at least not for a few years. Pat testing every 2 or 3 years, or before the next show might be more suitable.