company touring lighting desk

[peter]

...LED mapping? Media servers? Ten simultaneous physical playbacks (with lots more virtual ones in the background)? Full colour touchscreen and eight encoders? A powerful Programmer for hands-on busking? Built-in UPS? Twice the price - yes. Twice the desk - and then some. IMHO. :)

 

The original poster asked for "generics only, approx 120 circuits needed, 150 cues". That's spec for spec the type of show a Jester TL is designed for. We don't claim it to be designed for LED mapping, multiple playbacks, etc, because that's not what customers like rezmu are asking for. Why pay for features that you don't need? Surely a reliable, affordable solution to a product request is better than over-specing and over complicating the solution for the sake of it.

[rezmu]

@ Gareth

 

I appreciate you taking the time to reply in detail.

 

I will of course do some extensive testing with my LD before making a purchase.

Although he is to my mind an excellent LD, and has greatly contributed greatly to the quality of my pieces and shows, he is not particularly interested in the technical side of things. If he can have a presto, pronto, or mentor, he's happy, otherwise he works with whatever is in the venue.

 

Though he favors AVAB desks, I was figuring that if we have our own, even if he has to adapt a bit at the beginning, that will be compensated by the added proficiency in the future.

 

So I'm looking to narrow the field to a couple of desks that I would feel comfortable with, and have him try, and choose. (We are based in Paris, France)

 

Regarding the MagicQ 50, it was my understanding that it is a stand-alone desk that you just added the screen to, and that the pc version + wing was being suggested as backup ?

[smalljoshua]

The MQ 50 is a desk which you add a screen to. Looking at the Sept price list it is said to come with an external screen but there is no mention of this on the site. If you do use a PC as a backup, I think you will need to use Ethernet to DMX boxes instead of the MQ50's internal ones. It is in the catalogue.

 

Josh

[gareth]

...LED mapping? Media servers? Ten simultaneous physical playbacks (with lots more virtual ones in the background)? Full colour touchscreen and eight encoders? A powerful Programmer for hands-on busking? Built-in UPS? Twice the price - yes. Twice the desk - and then some. IMHO. :)

 

The original poster asked for "generics only, approx 120 circuits needed, 150 cues". That's spec for spec the type of show a Jester TL is designed for. We don't claim it to be designed for LED mapping, multiple playbacks, etc, because that's not what customers like rezmu are asking for. Why pay for features that you don't need? Surely a reliable, affordable solution to a product request is better than over-specing and over complicating the solution for the sake of it.

In a word (well, two) - future-proofing.

 

He might not be looking at lots of moving lights, or LEDs, or media servers at the moment. But apparently he works for a dance company, and this sort of thing is becoming more and more common in contemporary (and other sorts of) dance these days. In the 'anything can happen' world of modern dance theatre, there's a lot to be said for being equipped to cope with whatever might get thrown at you.

 

Anyway, the MQ100 (and probably CongoJr. and Ion) is clearly out of the OP's budget, so this discussion is a bit academic - something more cheap'n'cheerful is evidently the order of the day. My experience and knowledge lies mainly at the higher end of the console market, so I don't really have that much to offer in terms of informed input when it comes to a discussion of the relative merits of small lighting desks. Not that that seems to stop some BR contributors, but still .... :)

[Nick S]

In a word (well, two) - future-proofing.

 

He might not be looking at lots of moving lights, or LEDs, or media servers at the moment. But apparently he works for a dance company, and this sort of thing is becoming more and more common in contemporary (and other sorts of) dance these days. In the 'anything can happen' world of modern dance theatre, there's a lot to be said for being equipped to cope with whatever might get thrown at you.

 

I don't really buy into that argument - if you're currently committed to a more conventional rig, why future proof at all? Any new technology is going to be coming into play in a matter of years, not months. It could be 5 or more years before the end-user was looking to use large amount of LED, video, or intelligent tech. It's not unreasonable to assume that by that time there will be newer, better, and cheaper solutions for dealing with it than exist today.

 

It's not unreasonable to believe that when price barrier for LED and media server units comes down so too will the cost of control. It's almost certain that 5 or 6 years down the line Zero88 could well have a Jester TL priced unit that can do what you're suggesting it should. Certainly the tech you see in a unit like the Jester (or the 2.0 version of the ETC SmartFade) would not have been available at that price point half a decade ago.

 

Thus, suppose you spend £5000 buying an ETC Ion (that figure is pulled out of my arse, I don't know the UK pricing) today rather than the £1600 on a Jester TL on the basis that in a few years you may well want to invest in newer technology and require additional control. When you come to buy all that tech you future-proofed for it's more than likely there will be new control solutions available at a lower cost. Suppose the cost of an Ion has since dropped to £4000 (not an unreasonable assumption to make).

 

You'll have ended up spending £5600 in total on two consoles, which will probably last you a good number of years more than buying one more feature complete console outright in an attempt to future proof - all for only £600 more.

 

The prices I can find are magicq 50 : 7777 euros

congo jr :approx 6500 euros

ion : 6444 euros

ETC prices you find published online are nearly always meaningless, and often have little reflection on what you might get from a dealer.

[ChrisBogg]

Another thumbs up for the magic Q products from Chamsys. a good british desk with great support from a friendly knowledgeable team almost 24/7. if you chose this option and have a laptop you could add an artnet box for not much money and have you laptop run as a live backup to the desk. should the primary console fail, yur laptop would take over till your console is back on its feet. options are very portable indeed (hand luggage sized) and are very well future proof. not sure about the console you LD is familiar with but the magic Q can be manipulated to have a similar feel to the Whole hog and can be edited in a sinilar way to a strand with its command line.

 

Hope this helps

 

Chris

[gareth]

that figure is pulled out of my arse

I'm afraid it seems that some of the rest of your post was extracted from the same place. :)

 

For some reason, you seem to be quite convinced that there's no way a dance company will possibly need any cuttting-edge technology in their rig for the next five years, and that when they do they'll be buying it rather than renting. A rather flawed argument, that.

 

It's quite within the bounds of possibility that the LD for the production they do immediately after buying their new lighting desk might decide to use, say, a backdrop of ColorWeb 250 driven by a Hippotiser media server (two pieces of equipment plucked out of the air purely as examples). That technology exists right now, and is freely available for rental at a fairly reasonable cost in the UK. It's also the sort of thing that's possibly more likely to find its way into a contemporary dance show than it is into any other genre of theatre. Wouldn't it be that bit nicer if the spanky new lighting desk that the company has just bought is one which is able to take such devices in its stride?

 

Anyway, as I've said, it's all rather academic, as the OP has stated that such a console is outside their budget. So perhaps we'd better focus on discussion of more appropriate controllers that better suit the OP's requirements.

[rezmu]

Well this discussion has certainly made me consider aspects about my purchase that had not occurred to me.

 

I am the director and the main choreographer of my dance company, so I will have a lot to do with what kind of lighting there is for works we're going to be doing now, and 5 years from now as well. So this whole discussion is very interesting for me.

 

First of all, the Jester TLXtra was looking like the perfect choice, until I found out that it records shows in a proprietary format, and so the only way to have a proper backup is to bring a second desk along, which seems like a waste of money and travelling weight.

 

There are two main reasons I'm getting us our own desk at this point:

- I absolutely want to have a backup desk with the whole show in it, due to the recent experience I mentioned earlier

- I think that by having parts of the show pre-programmed, and having my LD work on a desk he is intimately familiar with, time can be saved which he can then spend on perfecting the adaptation to the venue we're in, making small changes, and generally improving the visual quality of our performance, which is very important to me

 

Regarding the future, and here I'm really thinking out loud:

I am all for future-proofing on the general principle.

But if I do end up doing a piece or a show that needs extremely complex lights, it will probably be in venue that we will have a residency in, with their local equipment, and probably their specialized desk operator.

I always use my own LD, and he consults with me on the lighting design for the new pieces, so we're certainly not going to run into to a problem from another LD wanting to add complex rented equipment that doesn't work with our new desk.

On the other hand, if my LD has a desk with a lot of potential, he may be motivated to use it and have interesting ideas for my next pieces, though being greatly attached to generics, it's quite doubtful.

And finally, apart from a piece where I wished the desk could do an interesting flicker, and possibly some fairly simple moving lights in the future, I don't see myself asking for extremely complex lighting functions for my pieces in the next 5 years. Though I'd be interested to hear in more detail what you think these might be in the context of dance pieces. The lighting I've liked the most was often done with generics by a LD with a lot of talent and imagination, rather than by adding many complex technologies that don't always really serve the overall work.

 

And if I do go for a complex desk for future proofing, I'm eating into all sorts of other parts of the budget, which have a more immediate and obvious impact.

 

So here's where I'm at so far:

 

I've determined I definitely want a desk that is perfectly integrated with its pc counterpart, for backup reasons.

What's looking the best at this point, based on recommendations, the fact that the desk already has the faders, the choice of controls on the pc wing, and the desk/pc version integration is a MagicQ 50 for the desk, the free software with the pc wing for backup.

 

The problem is that this is way way over my budget.

 

What I'm looking for is something that can have just the functionality of the Jester TLXtra, but with a well integrated pc backup solution, at a lower price point than the MagicQ Does this exist ?

[Nick S]

I'm afraid it seems that some of the rest of your post was extracted from the same place. :)

I'd humbly suggest, given your expertise with higher end consoles and mine with mid-capacity theatre (not dance) that both our arses are engaged in a mutual back to back (cheek to cheek?) conversation. :)

[dbuckley]

If you could get over your desire not to run from computers you could acheive the rest of your aims, something like (plug for Kiwi company!) LightFactory one universe with a wings including a lappie would fit your budget even allowing for a spare wing and interface.

 

With the hardware bits it does look and act a lot like a trad desk...

 

http://www.lifact.com/hardware/CCPlayback_tn.gifhttp://www.lifact.com/hardware/CCProgram_tn.gif

 

Otherwise its a pair of MLs, which is in your guide budget...

[csg]

at this time it might interest you to know my control platform. As a freelance engineer lighting productions from opera to tv, and conference to nightclubs, I needed a powerful and compact system with full back up and redundancy on a budget. Not easy!

 

What I have settled on is:

 

2 laptops running chamsys magicq

2 identical laptop psu's

1 chamsys maxi-wing

1 artnet DMX box

2 maxiwing powersupplies

1 optical mouse

2 littlelights

1 20" tft monitor

various ethernet, usb and spare power leads

 

all this comfortably fits into a ( 1650 I think) roll along peli case, and is light enough to go on trains, planes and even my motorcycle when the mood takes me

all for less expenditure than a second hand pearl 2000, this desk is fully futureproof, and I have backup for every single item other than physical playbacks ( if the wing went down I can generate DMX from the artnet box directly from the laptop)

 

As the maxi-wing has all the physical keys, encoders and faders of the full desk, programming and playback does not feel like a computer based system. for the full effect, you could add a touchscreen, but personally I prefer a mouse.

 

One issue which has not been raised yet is if the poster needs a desk which can output artnet / ethernet directly as some houses and venues are now using this method for data distribution, rather than the currently far more common DMX rings. Most larger desks have this facility, as does my system, but do the smaller porducts like the zero88 etc?

 

so, whilst what I use my not be perfect, it does seem to tick all the boxes, and would recommend that the poster has a good look at the wing options from chamsys, with maybe a primary maxi-wing and a secondary mini-wing.

[daemon]

There are two main reasons I'm getting us our own desk at this point:

- I absolutely want to have a backup desk with the whole show in it, due to the recent experience I mentioned earlier

- I think that by having parts of the show pre-programmed, and having my LD work on a desk he is intimately familiar with, time can be saved which he can then spend on perfecting the adaptation to the venue we're in, making small changes, and generally improving the visual quality of our performance, which is very important to me

 

Regarding the future, and here I'm really thinking out loud:

I am all for future-proofing on the general principle.

But if I do end up doing a piece or a show that needs extremely complex lights, it will probably be in venue that we will have a residency in, with their local equipment, and probably their specialized desk operator.

I always use my own LD, and he consults with me on the lighting design for the new pieces, so we're certainly not going to run into to a problem from another LD wanting to add complex rented equipment that doesn't work with our new desk.

On the other hand, if my LD has a desk with a lot of potential, he may be motivated to use it and have interesting ideas for my next pieces, though being greatly attached to generics, it's quite doubtful.

And finally, apart from a piece where I wished the desk could do an interesting flicker, and possibly some fairly simple moving lights in the future, I don't see myself asking for extremely complex lighting functions for my pieces in the next 5 years. Though I'd be interested to hear in more detail what you think these might be in the context of dance pieces. The lighting I've liked the most was often done with generics by a LD with a lot of talent and imagination, rather than by adding many complex technologies that don't always really serve the overall work.

 

Without sounding condescending I don't think it's the place of a director to be choosing lighting desks. You need to let your LD and Production Manager know there is budget for a new desk, and let them decide.

 

Just one final thing. If you think that great ideas will come to or your LD will be motivated by a new desk then you need to get a new LD.

[Wol]

Just a pointer, have a look and make sure that buying a laptop and a Chamsys Maxiwing (pretty much the same buttons / functionality as the MQ50) isn't cheaper than buying a MQ50 on its own.... The whole fact that demand brings price down means that the price of the wings has probably dropped more as theyre quite popular, compared to a MQ50!

 

Have you got the latest price list from Matt@Chamsys (B.R member tvi675... or something like that *checks facebook*. yup. thats the one!)? You might find it cheaper to buy the pc wing for a backup system, and a maxiwing for the main system which will give you all the same buttons as you get to program the desk as a MQ100 / MQ50, and use two laptops, or even a cheap desktop!

 

Just my 2p.

[Barney]

No replies about the Mentor or Jester I mentioned. Bad ideas ?

 

A couple of Mentor points for your consideration:

 

• The Mentor can be connected to a PC/laptop for tracking backup purposes, via a crossover Ethernet cable. The laptop/PC can also be used for pre-plotting and then the show synchro'd to the main console when at the venue. There is no special specification for the laptop/PC.
  
• The (submaster) faders can be toggled to channel control mode, whereby they become 1 fader = 1 light, which can be useful in touring applications or when you need someone to just bring up channels whilst you focus.
  
• Extra submaster/fader wings are available should you need direct access to more faders.
  
• The desk is self-contained (no external PC unit) and can be used without an external monitor if required, by using the touchscreen/LCD display.
  
• Shows can be imported/exported via universal ASCII format, using either floppy disk or USB memory stick.
  
• The ISIS software offers moving light control and effects generator built-in as standard, so offers future-proofing in that respect. Should you later decide to need more motion control facilities, an extension wing is available (easier to use, although not required)
  
• ADB desks are quite common through Europe, so some venues may already have the console and operators who are familiar with it. Also good for backup!
  

 

If you have any other questions, please ask!

 

Best regards,

Barney

[andy_s]

@ Gareth

 

of things. If he can have a presto, pronto, or mentor, he's happy, otherwise he works with whatever is in the venue.

 

Though he favors AVAB desks, I was figuring that if we have our own, even if he has to adapt a bit at the beginning, that will be compensated by the added proficiency in the future.

 

forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but the Congo is based somewhat on AVAB R&D, that ETC acquired when they took over AVAB. so if your LD is an AVAB fan, then congo junior is definitely worth a look, if you can find the budget. (as opposed to the Ion which relates more (so I understand) to previous ETC products). Our Congos' dust covers say "AVAB" on them.

 

as for the movers / generics issue, this presents no difficulty for the Congo. our stock rig is entirely generic, and we have two congos happily talking to lots of dimmers via ethernet, with some nodes available for when we need to send DMX off to other stuff like movers, effects, smoke etc.

 

oops, just read some more posts, properly - gareth does point out the AVAB connection...