Foldback Monitor or IEM

[LeeGolding]

I'm new on the forums, so a quick hi to everyone :P

 

I am a solo self contained singer (hard working), with a quality PA (HK Audio), singing to the best backing tracks I can get.

 

I'm sometimes having troube hearing the mix properly, even when I place the speakers behind rather than in front of me on the stage.

 

I think its time I used either an In Ear Monitor or Monitor / foldback speaker on stage. So that I can hear the mix properly, get my vocals perfect, and let my audience get the best audio experience.

 

With the type of performances I do, would I be better off with a speaker or IEM?

 

Thanks,

 

 

Lee Golding.

[Bobbsy]

From a sound mix point of view, IEMs are desireable. The use of monitor wedges will result in spill into your vocal mic which can "muddy" your sound and can also lead to feedback issues that need to be sorted out with extra EQ or whatever.

 

The downside of using IEMs is that some performers say it makes them feel "disconnected" from other members of the group (not an issue for you) or from your audience (which might be an issue).

 

Only you can decide whether the second point is a problem or not...I'd suggest renting an IEM system for a gig or two and seeing how you get on. If the IEM is okay for you, then it's by far the best way to go in sound terms.

 

Bob

[hounsome]

I agree with Bobbsy.

I am a monitor engineer and I have managed to move most of the bands I work with onto IEM systems. Stage sounds so mutch better as no monitors up so loud you can hear it at FOH, but I do suggest you find a hire place first as IEM's are not for all.

 

you will also need to look at IEM headphones dont think that your free one from you MP3 player are best. look at the ones made for this market.

 

I am sure there is some suggestions on this fourm (look in the search at the top). if not come back to me I and I can make some suggestions.

 

colin

[lostinvegas]

I use IEM. They took a bit of getting used to but tbh once you have used them a few times and get a good mix they really are good. I play in a loud rock band our FOH says since we took a lot out of the monitors the overall mix sounds a lot better.

 

I have worked with a lot bands who use mics at the front of the stage for ambiance. With my sound engineers hat on I would agree with the person above too I have tried to pursuade all the bands I work with to give IEM's a try at least.

 

Also remember IEM's are a lot lighter than lugging monitors and amps round and probably comparable in price.

 

 

Chris

[sleah]

Moderation: There was quite a bit of doubling of information in this topic which the mods have cleared out for clarity. This post referred to a suggestion to use a single IEM - hopefully the answer below makes sense.

 

"How about just having IEM in one ear? "

 

Thats not good for your hearing.

:P

 

Presumably that's because they would tend to want the one IEM louder than if wearing two, to try and hear over the noise entering the other ear, without the IEM?

[hounsome]

most People that use ambiance mics use monitor engineers to mix them. there is an art to it making sure the artist can hear the crowd but more importatly they can here what the ay need to in the mix. most cases I feed the mics in at the end of the song.

 

colin

[Rob_Beech]

Yes.

 

With just one in you get very little isolation so tend to want a much louder sound. Try it temporarily!!, put one in and turn it up to a suitably loud loeve. Something that would compete with a loud stage volume or a club environment. Then put the other in...... loud isn't it. You would agree that it is far too loud with both in, so think what it is doing to your 1 ear.

 

I missed this topic when I looked a little while back.

 

I'm surprised nobody has directly mentioned the mix issues yet.

 

As you're self contained, you don't have your own engineer. So you are the one mixing what the audience hears. You seem like you want to get the best sound for your audience which is a good thing. However, you can't forget yourself and I fully agree that if you can hear yourself better you'll be able to perform better. HOWEVER.

If you plug your ears up with IEM, or put a pair of loud wedges infront of you, you can no longer hear and control the FOH mix that the audience need to hear (and you want to improve).

 

How do you know that when you perform differently due to better monitoring that this still sounds right outfront. The minute you take out your ears you'll go back to performing how you did.

 

I'd suggest trying various options and perhaps hiring an engineer for a couple of gigs to check how the sound you are used to mixing from your stage position differs when you put wedges infront of you.

[hounsome]

Good Point Rob

 

"As you're self contained, you don't have your own engineer. So you are the one mixing what the audience hears. You seem like you want to get the best sound for your audience which is a good thing. However, you can't forget yourself and I fully agree that if you can hear yourself better you'll be able to perform better. HOWEVER.

If you plug your ears up with IEM, or put a pair of loud wedges infront of you, you can no longer hear and control the FOH mix that the audience need to hear (and you want to improve). "

 

colin

[Rob_Beech]

Just to add....

 

IEM are generally cheaper than Decent monitors.

 

If you consider the sennheiser packs at around £500, you'll be pushed to get a decent pair of wedges, and an amp, and probably an eq and all the cabling for this price without looking at the budget options. As an example, a pair of F12's is £1200 new, an amp to drive them, say an XTI4000 is £750, an EQ that does what you tell it to and what it says its doing say a DN360 is another £1000, maybe £50 of cabling. This will give you 2 mixes if you have a single monitor per mix, but this is often not enough. So with a pair of wedges per mix we'd be looking at £4200. And they're not expensive speakers or amps.

When we look at £500-£600 for a pack, and say another £300 for a GOOD set of ears it's quite clearly significantly cheaper to go the IEM route.

 

Then we add the advantage of not lugging monitors and amps and eq's around as Chris rightly points out.

[hounsome]

like I said try to hire a set to see if it works for you. if you let us know where you are we can suggest some people to talk to for this. not all companys hire IEM drivers out.

 

colin

[Chappie]

How about just having IEM in one ear? Just something that crossed my mind, I know nothing about these things, maybe it would mess with the performers mind too much :P

Not a good idea. From Shure:

 

A distressing, yet increasingly common, trend is only using one earphone and leaving the other ear open. Performers have several excuses for leaving one ear open, the most common is a dislike for feeling “removed” from the audience, but the dangers far outweigh this minor complaint. First, consider an example of a 110 dB SPL band practice. One ear is subjected to the full 110 dB, while the other ear needs 116 dB to be audible. Using only one earphone is equivalent to using a non-isolating earphone, except one ear will suffer damage twice as fast as the other! Second, a phenomenon known as binaural summation, that results from using both earphones, tricks the ear-brain mechanism into perceiving a higher SPL than each ear is actually subjected to. For example, 100 dB SPL at the left ear and 100 dB SPL in the right ear results in the perception of 106 dB SPL. Using only one earphone would require 106 dB SPL at that ear. The practical difference? Potential hearing damage in one hour instead of two hours. Using both earphones will usually result in overall lower listening levels.

[LeeGolding]

Good Point Rob

 

"As you're self contained, you don't have your own engineer. So you are the one mixing what the audience hears. You seem like you want to get the best sound for your audience which is a good thing. However, you can't forget yourself and I fully agree that if you can hear yourself better you'll be able to perform better. HOWEVER.

If you plug your ears up with IEM, or put a pair of loud wedges infront of you, you can no longer hear and control the FOH mix that the audience need to hear (and you want to improve). "

 

colin

 

Sorry I'm finding it hard to get my head around this :-(

 

I was under the impression that if I had a foldback speaker in front of me, that I would hear the mix clearer and get my vocals sitting better in the mix.

 

When I soundcheck I walk out in front of the speakers a few times and make sure it sounds good everywhere in the room. Then I sing a couple of songs from behind the speakers so that I know how the mix sounds from there. Sometimes, I'm finding that when my vocal is sitting nicely in the mix from the audiences point of view, behind the speakers I'm not hearing my vocals clearly enough.

 

Would a low volume monitor mix not allow me to hear my vocals better, rather than listening to the whole mix which is going over the whole room, along with people occasionally talking in the background, etc?

 

Obviously I would have to compensate between the level of vocals I hear and what the audience will hear, but as I've gigged a lot so far, I'm reasonably good at judging what the audience hears. Then again, the largest room I've performed in is 250 people.

 

Unfortunately, I can't currently afford a mixing engineer (maybe in the future however!). I have a friend who has some singing experience who I could show how I like my sound and mix, but they may not be available for every gig.

 

Lee.

[Bobbsy]

You're thinking along the right lines.

 

In that elusive "ideal world" you'd have a sound engineer out in the front of house area making sure your mix sounds great for the punters. In that case, your monitor system (be it IEM or wedges) would be just to allow you to hear yourself better and thereby improve your performance.

 

However, in your case you want it to both help you hear yourself and also help you to improve the mix heard by the audience. These two needs aren't 100% compatible. For a start, the mix heard out front isn't the "clean" sound from the mixer. It's affected by sound bouncing off the walls and ceiling and, depending on the levels you use, may also include an element of "direct" sound straight from your mouth and/or from any instruments in use. A monitor mix, on the other hand, will be much more the "straight from the mixer" sound. Beyond that, it do the "help you hear yourself" part of the job, it might not even be the same mix balance as you send to FOH.

 

Your present working method of learning to judge how the "right" audience mix sounds from the stage can be extended to the use of monitors. With a bit of practice you can learn how it should sound to your ears to be right in the audience. And, of course, hearing yourself better can only improve the overall perfomance at the same time.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bob

[chatterbox]

IEM's get my vote every time. The insular feeling that some acts get from IEM's can be helped by either ambient mics or pulling the IEM's just slightly loose in the ears... If you let a little air in , you loose the insular feeling.

I have acts that I mix regularly, and they have 2 different sets of ear molds - 1 set that fits very tight and makes you feel insular but is better for musicians like drummers (please no drummer/musician jokes ) :** laughs out loud **: and 1 set that is slightly less tight, so they can hear more ambient noise and audience response - ideal when audience interaction is required.

 

As everyone says - maybe hire a set to try, but bear in mind that without the actual proper molded ear plugs - the sound will not be as good, and you wont feel so cut off, as they wont fit as tightly....

 

CHATTERBOX

[LeeGolding]

Ok. Thank you for the excellent advice.

 

Lee.