Analogue outboard vs digital desk onboard (inboard?)

[Shez]

One of the advantages of digital desks that is frequently touted around is the lack of a need to lug around a big rack of outboard as most of that processing is already built in to the desk. But how does it actually compare? There's a vast array of analogue processors out there, each with their own unique sound. People pick and choose what goes in their rack based on that sound and the facilities each different model offers. Do you find the offerings in a digital desk more limiting? (no pun intended)

I still use analogue boards almost exclusively so can't draw on much experience with digital boards so I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on how they get on with the "outboard" that's available in different digital desks.

[dosxuk]

I've seen several people touring now with a small rack of the analogue bits they want to use because they like the sound, and then use the onboard stuff for everything else. So instead of a big rack of 10 gates, 10 comps, 4 fx units, 2 EQs etc, you just get 1 fx unit, an eq and a dual comp. Much easier on the back, and you don't loose the sound you like.

[nick7076]

We use a Makie tt24 for FOH. The big advantage we find with a digital desk is the routing options.

The ability to put the effect exactly where you want in the signal path on the input, on a bus, on the output, just makes life so easy.

If a particular sound or piece of equipment is required then that can still be used with standard inserts.

Also when working with multiple bands, for example at a festival, the recalling of all mix and effect settings with one buttton after a sound check saves soooo much time.

For us the flexibility outwieghs any sound concerns cos we can still add them if needed.

[Charlie Jeal]

The answer is it depends on which particular desk you're going to be using.

If you use the Digidesign D Show system you've got access to all the plug ins available to pro tools users provided you have the Ilok usb key to authorise them, the Soundcraft offerings have effects and dynamics algorithms based on other Harman owned brands such as Lexicon, DBX and BSS, all the dynamics and effects on the Digico D5 are pretty good as well. In fact the only times I've really felt the need for some extra outboard gear is with the Yamaha offerings as I'm personally not the hugest fan of their comps and gates. At the end of the day I guess its down to how well the internal stuff compares to your favourite outboard units some people far and away prefer TC and Lexicon reverbs to any others so they would probably use a couple of outboard units for main channels others are using the Cranesong HEDD to add some "warmth" to what they percieve as the more "clinical" sound of digital boards.

 

One suggestion I would offer to users of Yamaha digital desks is to use the type 1 EQ on output as its a little more "surgical" and the type 2 which is their analogue eq emulation on input channels.

 

Hope that helps rather than muddying the waters even more.

 

Charlie

[Killyp]

So far the sound/size benefits/cons have only been mentioned, but what about the usability? While I'm not exactly an LS9 expert (I know my way around one, but no more), I find digital desks in general to be slow and clunky in comparison to their analogue counterparts until you start looking at the top-end of the digital desk arena (such as the VI series).

 

For example, I would much more rather use a K3 + outboard gear than an LS9, simply because everything is available as a hands-on control; I don't have to delve into a menu to change one small parameter.

[paulears]

I don't have to delve into a menu to change one small parameter.

Nope, but you do have to open the dog box, stretch over without knocking anything, try to get a lead in upside down, then try to find the right holes in the back of a rack in the dark and then spend a while fiddling when you get the unexpected request for a 'gadget' to be patched in somewhere you hadn't anticipated. Needing another compressor, or a gate on a noisy keyboard when the ones in the rack are patched into mic channels that might not need it is far, far more annoying. On a digital desk the inconvenience of a few button pushes is not really a problem at all - and going back to the previous set-up, just a button push away too!

[Charlie Jeal]

As regards the size benefits thats primarily something that keeps promoters happy as it results in far fewer seat kills.

 

The speed of use issue is simply one of familiarity, that said I haven't found the LS9 particularly fast to get around compared to the other Yamaha boards, I do find it a lot easier to have studio manager and the appropriate editor running as well for ease of use in the case of Yamaha stuff. I do like the convenience of being able to take a show from desk to desk either stored on a laptop or usb key, however my ultimate preference is still for an XL4 with outboard gear of my choice.

 

The major probelm with using digital boards is that there is as yet no standard user interface meaning that you have to learn the idiosyncracies of each brand.

 

Charlie

[Killyp]

I don't have to delve into a menu to change one small parameter.

Nope, but you do have to open the dog box, stretch over without knocking anything, try to get a lead in upside down, then try to find the right holes in the back of a rack in the dark and then spend a while fiddling when you get the unexpected request for a 'gadget' to be patched in somewhere you hadn't anticipated. Needing another compressor, or a gate on a noisy keyboard when the ones in the rack are patched into mic channels that might not need it is far, far more annoying. On a digital desk the inconvenience of a few button pushes is not really a problem at all - and going back to the previous set-up, just a button push away too!

 

A fair response and one which makes perfect sense IMO. I have very limited experience with using digital desks at present.

 

 

Another issue which I believe won't cause problems for quite a while yet is that digital desks (from my experience) simply don't give you as much of an understanding regarding signal flow, gain structuring and what's actually going on in terms of routing etc...

[mervaka]

its a new way of thinking. I don't have a problem with digital desks once I've had a chance to read the system flow diagrams.

[TallMike]

I don't have to delve into a menu to change one small parameter.

Nope, but you do have to open the dog box, stretch over without knocking anything, try to get a lead in upside down, then try to find the right holes in the back of a rack in the dark and then spend a while fiddling when you get the unexpected request for a 'gadget' to be patched in somewhere you hadn't anticipated. Needing another compressor, or a gate on a noisy keyboard when the ones in the rack are patched into mic channels that might not need it is far, far more annoying. On a digital desk the inconvenience of a few button pushes is not really a problem at all - and going back to the previous set-up, just a button push away too!

 

Here here!

 

A lot of people use the LS9 as an example of a 'difficult' digital desk - but they forget (or do not know) how powerful it really is, for less than £5k brand new.

[DaveBennett]

its a new way of thinking. I don't have a problem with digital desks once I've had a chance to read the system flow diagrams.

 

Ditto to that.

 

Doing a lot of voluntary work I often walk into venues to engineer concerts for teen bands etc and using the in house gear.

 

I can walk in and use almost any analouge desk and basic outboard without too much trouble.

 

With a digital desk, they do vary from desk to desk, and it can take a quick manual flicking or messing around to get your head around.

 

But, for things like routing to anywhere and storing presets, there fantastic!

[Bobbsy]

I'm a bit late to the party (due the time difference and the fact it's a long weekend down here) but...

 

For the most part I've been entirely happy to use the inbuilt effects on the digital desks I've mixed on (mainly various Yamaha offerings with a few forays into Soundcraft and Digico territory). I've only brought in external units when I needed something very specific not covered in the desk or there was a rider requirement for something exotic (for example an Aphex exciter). I should say that, even before digital desks, the Yamaha SPX series of effects units were a favourite of mine anyway. As for other outboard (dynamics, EQ and the like) I was never precious about make and model so long as a certain quality threshold was passed...and all the digital desks I've used easily pass this threshold.

 

As for using menus or a "big knob" to control the effects, I find this a non issue. The things I'm most likely to have to adjust in real time (verbs for example) tend to be menu driven even on the outboard gear these days so it makes little difference whether I'm running through the menu on the mixer or on the rather small front of an SPX or Lexicon or TC Electronics or whatever.

 

Beyond that, the other MAJOR advantage of staying "in the box" is that effects an EQ settings can all be adjusted using the scene presets on the digital mixer. Having a single button push change mixer, EQ and effects setting is the best thing since sliced bread in my book. Perhaps this is more a benefit in my repeatable world of theatre that it would be for you club rockers, but believe me, I like it!

 

Bob

[RustyBrooks]

Digital does make the whole effects thing a lot easier, all there and you can have the toys on every channel if you want, though I still tend to find others and myself useing hardware effects and preamps for specific uses and to make sure the same essential toys are available for every job, be it a production tour, or a one off promo thing.

 

The only major downer of some of the digital, well the digidesign is if you loose your ilok, with your authorisations on, or there is an update that messes up the authorisation, so spend a lot of time trying to sort that out, not much fun in production, and even less on a gig day, though this is very very rare, but is like somone nicking your outboard racks from the truck.

 

I like to keep my lexicon reverb and a good preamp with me in case I find a cheap desk and need to put the main vox into my pre amp to give it the clarity edge, same with my reverbs... though production tours can often spec the hire company to put the same gear in, but still end up with a far smaller footprint than with analougue, as the couple of toys peopple want can normaly be squeezed in with the rta in a small case to sit ontop of the psu for example.

 

Though yamahas fx are great, its all spx 2000's or there abouts, the digicos need reverbs outboard, and the digidesign needs reverbs bought in for plugins as the onboard ones are just about useable, but nowt special

 

I'm still not convinced that digital at its best is better in pure performance terms than good analougue, but when it all works its a whole lot easier, but for those special toys that you really like, or need an instance of, having the physical unit there is great, and it ups the flashing light count too...

[Track21]

I use a Yammy 01v96 V2 and love it. Its nice and small for those horrible get ins, and with a custom built 1u patch panel in the flight case I've got the extra 4 XLR in's and converted the 4 jack omni outs to XLR's also.

 

I agree they do take quite a while to get your head around at first, but I find I work faster on it now than I ever did before on analogue! The one thing I do miss though is a rack of gates. It just makes it easier looking at GR over the whole kit in one glance.

 

I run mine along side my laptop so I can have one page in front of me, and the other on the screen running studio manager, with added help of my Digi 002 and a couple of adat cables I even get 16 tracks pre EQ straight into Pro tools. Great for selling live demos back to bands! :)

[nick7076]

I can't comment on the usability of other digital desks cos I havent used 'em, but on the tt24 ANY parameter you need is at most 2 botton presses away.

Not imediate I know but still not buried in a menu. The built in touch screen is usefull for ajusting eq curves or gates etc but with the addition of a laptop the increased screen size allows far more deatailed viewing of settings.

As for being able to see routing, pressing the select button on any channel/group/return/main or aux mix will highlight the select button on all the channels that are sending to the selected item. Simple!

Yes I can understand the difficulties of walking into a venue and being faced with a digital desk that works slightly differentley to the last one you worked on but as they become more popular consumer demand will force some standardisation.