Small active subwoofers

[KidRay]

I play (drums) in a multi-tribute show (Shania, Cher, Madonna, Tina, Anastacia, Amy Wino etc.) and our singer has replaced her lovely EV vocal PA with a pair of Mackie SRM 450 v2s for reasons of portability (one of them came with a nice hum built in!). We've just done an agents showcase in a medium sized function room (Grosvenor Pulford Hotel, near Chester) and I took my pair of SS Fortissimo 15" active speakers along to add some extra oomph. The PA was handling vocals, keyboard reinforcement, guitar reinforcement and, after a soundcheck we decided the kick drum needed reinforcement too. We got some good comments about the sound, but from behind the kit I can't tell how good the balance was. I had been thinking about getting some Fortissimo 15" active subs to go with the Mackies, but I am now wondering whether this is necessary. Is there a rule of thumb for how much sub power you need for a certain amount of mid/high power? Also should I be using a crossover to send just the low end to the 15" (full range) speakers and leave the Mackies to handle the mid/high on their own?

 

The Fortissimo subs are rated 600W RMS each, while my full range Fortissimo cabs are rated 300W RMS each.

 

As far as I can see my options are:

a) use the existing speakers as is (daisychained as above)

b) use the existing speakers with a crossover

c) use 1 or 2 active subs in place of the 15" full range speakers

 

Your opinions on what is going to give the most balanced sound would be appreciated!

[MarkPAman]

As far as I can see my options are:

a) use the existing speakers as is (daisychained as above)

b) use the existing speakers with a crossover

c) use 1 or 2 active subs in place of the 15" full range speakers

 

Some thoughts:

 

Option a - well you've sort of proved that works.

 

I don't see much point in option b, I would think the Mackie will have more low end than you fortissimo anyway.

 

The sub will not go any lower than your speaker does at the moment, but will deliver more power down there.

According to the catalogue, the fortissimo subs have

a filtered output which removes a degree of the very low frequencies....

I'd be much happier is it said "active crossover with xxx Hz crossover point", but I guess that means they are able to run without a seperate one.

Probably the best of your 3 options.

 

 

You could try option d (desk permitting)

Run voclals only through the Mackies, and the keys, guitar & kick drum through the Fortissimo.

Better than a or b - may or may not be as good as adding subs, but much cheaper!

[hounsome]

You will find it best if you use a crossover then the subs only see sub information and the mid/high boxes only see that. the amps will run more efficiant.

 

colin

[Gooders]

I have just upgraded my speakers and I'm now using RCF 712-a and ART 905-AS subs. They sound fantastic and give great low end punch.

 

It may also be worth looking at the ART 705-AS I have heard these as well and very impressed.

 

As for the crossover have you looked at the BDX driverack PX ?

[MarkPAman]

It may also be worth looking at the ART 705-AS I have heard these as well and very impressed.

But they do cost about 4 times more than the Fortissimo!

 

As for the crossover have you looked at the BDX driverack PX ?

If you mean DBX Driverack PA them look at it is the only thing you should do :D Have a little search for the reason why.

[KidRay]

Thanks for your replies so far, I have looked at the figures for the various speakers and, though the Mackie on paper has more low end, in practice that's not how they sound.

 

The Fortissimo subs do seem to go lower than the full range speakers (they have a different speaker and amp) 40Hz vs. 60 Hz @ -10dB.

 

Balance is what I'm after, while the Mackies and the Forts we use are both full range speakers, will there be some unpleasantness with having 2 different brands pumping out a full range sound or would I be better sending high/mid to one set and low frequencies to the other, and if I do this will there be enough low end or do I need the higher powered dedicated subs?

 

I've just remembered there is a low (100Hz) pass output on the desk too (Allen & Heath PA20-CP)

[MarkPAman]

The new catalogue (arrived this morning) has both 15A and 15A Sub going down to 40Hz, though this could be wrong.

 

This is really a question you have to answer by listening. Mixing different types of full range speakers to do the same job is usually not good thing, but it may work for what you have & what you're doing.

 

Do try option d I gave you above - run in mono & have the vocals panned hard left into the Mackies & Instruments hard right into the Fortissimo (have one of each speaker on each side of the stage though :D ) - that's option d. Then bring all the pans to the centre to give you option a again. Listen and decide which is best.

 

Cost to try this - zero.

[Gooders]

It may also be worth looking at the ART 705-AS I have heard these as well and very impressed.

But they do cost about 4 times more than the Fortissimo!

 

As for the crossover have you looked at the BDX driverack PX ?

If you mean DBX Driverack PA them look at it is the only thing you should do :D Have a little search for the reason why.

 

No I did mean the DBX Driverack PX it is designed for powered speakers, the only problem I'm aware of with the Driverack PA is if you turn it off before you turn the amp off you get a nasty thump.

[Bobbsy]

Lots of discussion on the Driverack PA here on the Blueroom...THIS TOPIC is just one of them.

 

Suffice to say the "nasty thump" you mention is enough to destroy HF drivers (many of us have experienced this) and you don't have to turn it off on purpose...a mains bump is enough. According to reviews quoted in the same thread, the Driverack PX cures this problem but I dont have personal experience one way or another. However, like many who have posted, I worry about dealing with any company that left the DRPA a serial killer of drivers as long as they did.

 

Bob

[Rob_Beech]

A few pence per unit. Sod em that's what I say I'll take my money elsewhere and know hundreds more that think the same.

 

That said, AFAIK the PX does cure this problem, but it's a cut down version of the PA I think (if such a thing is possible).

[ian hatch]

I play (drums) in a multi-tribute show (Shania, Cher, Madonna, Tina, Anastacia, Amy Wino etc.) and our singer has replaced her lovely EV vocal PA with a pair of Mackie SRM 450 v2s for reasons of portability (one of them came with a nice hum built in!). We've just done an agents showcase in a medium sized function room (Grosvenor Pulford Hotel, near Chester) and I took my pair of SS Fortissimo 15" active speakers along to add some extra oomph. The PA was handling vocals, keyboard reinforcement, guitar reinforcement and, after a soundcheck we decided the kick drum needed reinforcement too. We got some good comments about the sound, but from behind the kit I can't tell how good the balance was. I had been thinking about getting some Fortissimo 15" active subs to go with the Mackies, but I am now wondering whether this is necessary. Is there a rule of thumb for how much sub power you need for a certain amount of mid/high power? Also should I be using a crossover to send just the low end to the 15" (full range) speakers and leave the Mackies to handle the mid/high on their own?

 

The Fortissimo subs are rated 600W RMS each, while my full range Fortissimo cabs are rated 300W RMS each.

 

As far as I can see my options are:

a) use the existing speakers as is (daisychained as above)

b) use the existing speakers with a crossover

c) use 1 or 2 active subs in place of the 15" full range speakers

 

Your opinions on what is going to give the most balanced sound would be appreciated!

Wouldn't getting Mackie 15" active subs matched with the 450's be the best option of all.

That way you are keeping to one make so no matching problems and they sound pretty good.

A friend of mine runs a band very simular to yours and he runs the Mackie set-up and I've only ever heard him rave about the PA.

Just a thought.

[KidRay]

Just got back from another showcase, we were last on so lots of kudos but a late night as it overran quite a bit (how come we seemed to be the only ones who when told to do a 10 minute set actually did 10 mins?).

 

Of course you are right Mark, I've just checked the catalogue and the full range speakers go down to 40Hz too (I was looking at the wrong figures - they were right, it does affect your eyesight!).

I did consider the Mackie subs, but the 450s have been less than impressive, one came with a nasty hum and had to be returned, another one has just caught fire at a gig, and to my (albeit jaded) ear, they don't sound twice as good as the Fortissimos, very similar in fact.

 

I will try a few different configurations with our existing stuff first, as suggested, and see if I can borrow some subs to see if they make a significant difference, I don't particularly want to spend money on new gear if I don't have to.

[Rob_Beech]

Don't worry, you'll probably be the only act to get any work.

 

Completely OT, build a showcase set that you can adjust depending on time. Join songs together, use the extremes of your material, join things up, but don't forget to do a couple of complete songs start to finish, just to show that you can. Slightly more ON Topic.....You're promoting yourself so your sound is important but scale is also important. Don't take 40KW into a pub just to show the agents you have it. Use the right stuff for the job. Show them you can do 10 minutes like asked not 20. A decent 10 minute set showing what you can do, sounding GOOD will make more of an impression than a band going in taking in 3 times the PA necessary being far too loud and doing 30 minutes, if they're willing to do that infront of the agent goodness knows what they'll do at a gig.

[Killyp]

Another tip (from a young and admittedly inexperienced person) would be never rely on the pub/venue PA even if the promoter says you can. If you've got the kit, take it just in case, even if it doesn't actually get used.

[KidRay]

With you all the way Rob!

 

Although every act was going through the house PA last night (Martin Blackline speakers, didn't notice the amp racks) and using the backline provided which was "...of the very highest quality." (Crate etc. combos and a Tama Rockstar fusion kit with various mismatched stands and missing cymbal protectors etc.)

 

We were sitting out front most of the night and when the first act overran (they did 18 mins, using backing tracks so they must have known) you could see the agents looking at their watches and tutting.

 

Hopefully it was worth the time we spent honing the set, trimming out a verse here and a chorus there to get to the required 10 mins (including 2 costume changes for the singer) medley of 8 songs (or parts thereof).

 

Agents are not normal punters, they've seen it all before and won't be shouting for "Simply the Best" again at the end of the night (No, it wasn't in the medley!)