Submaster Questions

[adamcoppard]

We are about to endevour on the hire of a desk with submasters, (Leap Frog or Avo Pearl '04) for our annual show. We are going to be programming this year, rather than just busking like we have before, and submasters and theatre stacks seem to set the two desks apart. I know that submasters aren't really designed to do theatre, where as a Go / Next button is, but, would submasters be suitable for theatre work?

 

I would feel more comfortable with the Pearl, but, I've heard that the theatre stacks in the Pearl are not very good, where as this is what the Leap Frog was designed for. So, my question, if I put each scene on a submaster on the Pearl, utilising all 15 submasters, over however many pages it has (off the top of my head, I believe it's again, 15), to run the whole show, bringing up each fader, fading them in turn, or would it save me a big headache just to get the Leap Frog in, learn how it works, and press the go button, or should I just use the Pearl (I only ask, as I don't have one around to play with, and wandering what your experiences are).

 

Just for information, rig is going to be 6 intelligent's (4x Robe Wash 250's, 2x Spot 250's), and a around 30 odd generics, with some LED uplighters.

[JDLX]

What kind of show is it? How is it being cue'd - by yourself with a script or by a show caller? I wouldn't recommend the pearl for theatre use, especially if you want to plot cues.

[DonkiDonki]

The Pearl is great for live shows which don't always run the same cues in the same order everytime. It's a good desk for busking.

It has a theatre stack mode, but I've never used it so I can't comment on how well it works. (Can anyone reccomend this feature of the Pearl?)

 

If your doing a theatre style show then it would make sense to have a desk with an easy to use stack section and GO button.

[adamcoppard]

The show is Blood Brothers, and will losely follow my script. By saying this, I mean that there will be live elements, in important places in the play.

However, someone will also be calling the script, due to the changes, and the way the actors or performing (I.e they will call when the actors have been switched after a blackout). I'm sure with a Go button someone is going to say go backwards (which I'm sure you can do) but I was wandering wether it would be easier to use a bank of submasters, to crossfade manually between the scenes etc.

[paulears]

It depends on how you like to work. Me, I'm always happiest with a few useful states on subs, and for some shows, never record anything new at all. For other shows, I'll use proper cues with maybe things like workers, bubble machines, practicals and effects on the subs. Most controls do things in different similar ways (if that makes sense).

 

The important thing is that if you need to go back - and it's not that common, then this can be done quickly. Desks with lots of cue stacks often just get used as conventional one state per fader subs for theatre style shows - but if the show is simple and uses the same state lots of times, then running it off subs alone does make sense. If you have lots of pages, it's even easier.

 

 

If a simple go button is all the show needs, then you have loads of choice really.

[benash]

Can't comment on those desks in particular but for school shows I'd lean towards using submasters as you have a little more control and can generally deal with unexpected onstage events easier. Also be wary of being locked into timed fades and crossfades in case the folks on stage are running slow or fast.

 

Having said that if your shows tend to run pretty tight and/or you have an inexperienced board op then using stacks might be a better option.

 

Just my 5 cents (we got rid of 2 cent coins years ago)

[Davethsparky]

I have used the theatre stack on the pearl and didn't have any trouble with it. The theatre stack is however very basic when compared to desks which were designed for that type of work. You may find the lack of an automove function very annoying if you are used to using such a feature but this can easily be overcome by creating move cues and linking them.

Which desk you choose should really depend on how you prefer to work, I would rather have the fader per channel style of desk than the command line style of operation and so I tend to use a pearl.

You should also consider that there are very few people around who use the pearl's theatre mode regularly and so help and advice may be more difficult to get than if you go for the frog option. This will also have a bearing if you find yourself needing a substitute board op at short notice.

[adamcoppard]

I would prefer to have the Pearl, as after reading the manual, it seemed like everything pointed out just felt right, and what I would have done had I waked up to the desk. Having said that, our Zero 88 Alcora does some wierd things (like display the next scene number in the display, rather than the current) and if the Leap Frog did this, I would hate it!

 

Although, I haven't actually sat down at either desk, and so won't know how I react until the day for a Pearl, so, this is just guess work. I have downloaded the OLE's, but they seem clunky, and no where near capable of what the desk could do, as well as the fact that the Leap Frog OLE made my PC BSOD. Grrr.

 

All valid points, and if anyone has any experience with either desk, and has some gotcha's or odd points to point out on either desk, it would be appreciated.

[niclights]

I have never used Theatre Stack on a Pearl and I know many don't like although I can't say why.

 

But you don't have to run in this mode to have cue stacks. You can just program chases and unlink steps and use [go] to advance connected chase. At any point you can take control of a fade manually by wheel. To go backwards simply change chase direction.

 

You can also advance unlinked steps via the playback add button which avoids need to connect although it will also flash intensity - avoid by lowering flash master. You might consider turning off auto-connect too.

[peter]

I'm biased, but I'll just say that your show is exactly the sort of show that the Leap Frogs were designed for. The theatre stack features on the Leap Frog take things a lot further than the Pearl - move on dark, macros linked to cues, tracking and on the fly updates, etc. If you'd like any more information on the Leap Frogs, please don't hesitate to contact me off forum.

 

As for the Offline Editor causing a Blue Screen of Death, Dan - please drop me a line with some more details. This isn't something we've heard of before and I'd like to investigate what might have caused it.

[JDLX]

If you do go with the pearl and use the playbacks, then be sure to 'creep' each pb in a few % before you bring it up for each scene or you'l get a nasty live move. Unless of course you arn't bothered about that.

[Kevin@Wicked]

I would suggest using an GrandMA console as each stored submaster can be used to have individual looks which you are playing with states, then simply select a designated submaster to be your main theatre stack and dump your states in order, linking effects and macros as needed.

 

The great thing is you can have a play with the software on your laptop or PC - the software is free to download for the MA Lighting website and its identical to the software on the console.

 

If you want hire a console (Ultra Light, Light or even a Full Size) - please send me a message - we may even be able do a demo and training session!!

[adamcoppard]

The MA looks a little out of our price range, and, the companies we are hiring from has already been short listed, so, it's a no go on that front I'm afraid. It's more of a case of, it's either the Avolites Pearl 2004 or Leap Frog 96. Back to the manuals.

[Flyingwysiwyg]

Hi Adam,

 

If it's any help I've done several theatre shows on the Pearl, using both the theatre stack and the submaster technique depending on the experience of the operator involved.

We have one running at the moment where the operator (amateur show) is quite happy cueing the movers with submasters on the Pearl and pressing the Go button on an ETC desk for the generics.

 

The theatre stack on the Pearl isn't brilliant, but at the same time it does work. If you need to go back more than a couple of cues because you've over run, it's messy, whereas finding the correct submaster and running it is quick and easy.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Simon.

[jacet]

I'd echo others comments that the pearl can be effective in theatre stack however it isn't the easiest or most flexible to use and I certainly wouldn't recommend it if you don't have much / any experience of using a pearl in anger. I'd stick with the frog as your profile says you're more experienced with the way zero88 desks work.

As far as cue stack vs subs goes I'd personally stick with the cue stack method. Firstly if you / your opp can't make a show it's far simpler for somebody to replace them if they only have to press go. As others have mentioned with cue stack you can program in move while dark cues and have greater control with LTP wait / fade times whereas using subs it'd be one more thing to think about / go wrong. Finally while timings won't always be bang on every performance due to cast / band / crew etc a cue stack will provide consistency across all the shows with the ability to speed up / slow down fades on the fly if required.

As I said, in my opinion the frog on cue stack sounds the most suitable for your situation.

Jacet