Monitor mixing unhappy with levels

[gazzer1uk]

Hi all,

 

It may sadly become apparent that I don't know what I am talking about however!!!!!!!! :huh:

 

I am the drummer of a 5 piece band, we have a good PA and mixing desk, and plenty of monitors, but seem never to get the mix each of us want on the back line. Were told that the FOH sound is usually pretty impressive.

 

Were off to Milton Keynes for a gander at the weekend, so I wondered if you guys withe experience here might help us ask the right questions.

 

Firstly the desk we have is quite new and feature rich, I can't recall the model but it has two aux output channels for monitors and 12 input channels and deliver 500 watts a channel I think form the desk. We have two seperate amplifiers of about 1k each for the FOH.

 

We have 4 x Peavey monitors (15" I think), and usually an IEM for the singer, 3 go across the front, one for rythym and bass, one for voice, one for lead, and the 4th gets dropped at my feet as the drummer.

 

I thought the objective was to get the sound as it was from the FOH and then allow each person to "increase" what they listen to which of course is usually themselves. In discussions it seems this is not the case, and the biggest issue apart from incredible variabilities of each venue, is that no one save for the rythym guitarist is happy with what he hears!!

 

Now I thought the best way to give us what we want is to use the Aux channels to give the 4 monitors the result of the FOH mix, and then to have each individual the opportunity to increase the volume of whatever they want, be it guitar or vocals, to their own monitor station.

 

Given the monitor mix is off the two aux channels, to me it seems once that input mix is sorted, all you can do is vary the overall volume, the mix will remain the same...........

 

Thus what could we do to give the flexibility I have hopefully described? I can only thin we need to premix the monitors, which sounds like an additional mixing desk and even there, how would you restrict things to the individual monitor station..........

 

Oh I am so confused, hope someone might be able to help!!! :blink:

 

Cheers,

 

Gazzer

[Rob_Beech]

Hi, Less is More.

 

You don't need to put anything in the monitor mix to start with. Just the things individuals want to hear. That was the mix won't sound cluttered.

 

Your main issue is you only have 2 monitor mixes, 4 monitors and 5 people. This means sharing. Bands don't like to share as they want to be able to hear what they want to hear, and this is usually different from what the next person wants to hear.

 

The next problem is power. It appears you are using the amp in the desk to power the monitors. This leaves you with only 2 channels of amplification aswell.

 

In an ideal world, you'd sell the powered desk, buy a desk with 2 more aux outs (Think mix wizard or similar) and buy 2 power amps, to give you 4 channels of monitoring. Of course, this would cost a fair bit of money but should keep people happier.

 

All that said, if you've come here and admitted that you don't really know too much about the whole thing it appears you are willing to learn. One thing I'd suggest is having a look on the forum about monitors, and how to use them efficiently, there's lots on here already that shouldn't be too difficult to find (I know it's here as I've written alot of it). but remember, Less is More. The same applies for most things within the industry.

[gazzer1uk]

Thanks Rob,

 

I am most certainly in a receptive mode!

 

Our bass player is the main PA advocate, he believes we could do with some more power another 500 watts was his thoughts, but I was trying to hold that idea as were pretty loud anyway. Were all in age terms mid 40's to early 50's but its rock and roll so it ain't quiet!!!

 

I saw something that seemed to suggest soemthing about having a mike splitter somewhere (can't find it now though!!!), we do mike up the back line most times, if you did that, I guess you could have a second desk to mix the back line for monitoring, but its getting complicated!!!!

 

We have some dosh to spend (probably the only ones in the world right now!!) maybe even thought he desk is only about a year old we should pex it for something with more monitor capabilities.........

 

So idea one is to get rid of what we have in favour of something more capable.... any idea what sort of price bracket the mixing desk would be in?

 

Cheers,

 

Gaz

[AndyL]

Firstly; the last thing you need in the monitors is the FOH mix.

 

With 5 people all wanting to hear different things you really need at least 5 pre fade auxes on the desk just for monitors. The Pre fade bit is important because otherwise your monitor mixes will change as the FOH mix is adjusted. Believe me, you might not think that is a problem but it really is! Remember that the sound the punters hear out front is a combination of the sound from your backline (including the acoustic output of your drum kit) and what comes out of the PA.

 

In a perfect world all the mics go through splitters, you have two desks and two engineers, one FOH and another one, usually at the side of stage, just to take care of monitors (or if you are a really big name artist with more money than sense then maybe just one monitor desk and one monitor engineer isn't enough, but I digress). That way as the output level from each band member and the hearing threshold of each band member 'adjusts' throughout the performance (due to adrenaline, fatigue, beer, etc.) the changing requirements of each band members monitor mix can be adjusted as well - leaving the FOH engineer to concentrate on making sure the punters hear what they came for.

 

As this isn't a perfect world and you don't currently have enough AUX mix busses on the desk things are always going to be a compromise. That needn't be the end of the world. Concentrate on what you all really NEED from the monitors. Unless you are playing HUGE stages all the instruments are probably loud enough most of the time through their own backline for you all to hear them without the PA or monitors. The main problem is usually the vocals. So to start with stick just vocals in the monitors. After that if there are any time keeping issues between the members of the "rhythm section" think carefully about what you really each need to hear to sort that out and add just enough of whatever it is to the monitor mix. As there are two AUX's available maybe divide in to two monitor mixes - one down front predominantly vocals so the singer(s) can stay in tune and another one for the rest of the band, putting in only what you really need to hear. You don't NEED the stage monitors to sound like you've recorded a CD you need them to help you stay in time and in tune. You might like to have it more like FOH, but really anything you don't NEED in the monitors is just adding to the burden on the amplifiers and making the overall sound in the room more difficult to control. Beware of the inevitable tail chasing. Adding one thing to the mix makes something else seem quieter so you add a bit more of something else which makes something else seem quieter so you add a bit more of something else ..... and before you know it everything is up to maximum and nobody can hear what they want either.

 

The other thing to consider is In Ear Monitors (IEM's). They needn't all be wireless. For drummers there are even dedicated amplifiers available with an extra channel to drive a seat shaker (a loudspeaker driver which bolts to your throne and gives you back the feel you lose from not having huge monitor speakers). This can give you a much better ability to hear what you need without filling the stage with extraneous sound. The lack of AUX's on the present desk might still be a problem though. There are also systems available which give each band member their own mini monitor mixer so they can adjust their own mix without affecting everybody else.

[Rob_Beech]

A new mixwizard is just over £700 inc vat without a flightcase.

 

Amps, well you can get what you can afford. A TA2400 is about £250 with the exchange rate at the moment, or a new Matrix UKP2100 for about £300 if you want British built.

To save your backs a bit but not your wallets you could look at the new QSC range, or the Crown XTI's which are less budget friendly at around the £750-£800 mark now (again due to exchange rates).

 

We measure volume in dB not in watts. if you have say 2000watts outfront, another 500watts isn't going to make any noticeable difference to the system volume. It's just going to draw more current.

[cliveybaby]

Agree with Rob pull everything back and find out what people want

 

less is more

 

explain 4 monitor cabs does not equal 4 monitor mixes

 

also play around with where peeps put their backline and even where the monitors

sit on the stage

 

like tesco every little helps

 

Cliveybaby

[gazzer1uk]

Thank you guys,

 

I think some nails hit on the head there.......!!!!

 

Great food for thought I am really grateful.

 

Cheers,

 

Gaz