show mics ME80 / ME 86 etc.

[dymondaudio]

Just looking for some general advice

 

Need to mic a show thats coming up and they don't want to use RM's for anything, much to my annoyance! This is the first show I've done where I haven't RM'd everything but the band!

 

Any way, any suggestions on the best to use? I am thinking along the lines of:

 

Sennheiser ME80 or ME66 along the front of the stage plus a couple over head

also a shure MX202 either side behind the front scenery,

 

all suggestions welcomed!

[dbuckley]

PCC160s should be your first port of call...

[dymondaudio]

Hi there, thanks for that, I have a couple of those which I use for general pick-up but I also need more directional pick-up hence the idea of shotgun mics.

 

Anyone had any experience of the mics I mention in a show setting?

[AndyL]

In days gone by rifle mics as "float mics", i.e. across the front, and sometimes overhead and /or firing in from the wings as well were the norm for covering ensemble scenes when only a few principles were on radio mics. Some shows where only light amplification was desired were done entirely using this technique. Later on boundary layer or pressure zone mics became favourites for the float mic position with various types ranging from the Crown PZM through the cheap Radio Shack version, the Mylab MP30 (I think it was), and so on each enjoying their time as favourites and culminating in the PCC 160. But, whatever mics you use you are not going to get the same "in your face" vocal levels that you get from personal radios, unless someone is crouching down or lying right in front of one of the mics.

 

The other accompanying "norm" to all these was judicious use of 30 band graphic equalisers to get rid of all the unwanted high and low frequencies and any peaky ones that are going to cause major feedback problems. the danger is in trying to get rid of everything that wants to feedback you end up with nothing left, so it is a balancing act - allow for lots of "quiet" time and patience to set this up! The old way with analogue desks was to insert a graphic channel on a group of all the float mics. If there were overheads or other spot mics they would need to be grouped and eq'd separately.

 

The key to success is mostly in the operating technique. You have to ride the faders constantly because the more mics you have live the less gain before feedback you get, the more noises off you pick up and the more phasing effects you will get from anything that is being picked up by more than one mic. It's a bit of a lost art, but quite satisfying to do well.

 

You should also enlist the directors help - if the production wants to go this way then they need to look at the blocking of scenes with sound in mind. If you have a small group in a scene don't put them miles up stage between the axis of two microphones. Get them moved so they are closer to, and on axis with, a (some) microphones - or put in an extra spot mic somewhere just for that scene.

 

The other issue to consider is what is off axis from the mics? If you have a loud pit band behind or adjacent to the float mics then they are going to change / colour the sound/balance of the band mix every time you open them up. A mic which has a lovely flat on axis frequency response but horribly colourful side lobes and back lobes might be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

If you are going with the rifle mics then K6/ME 66 or MKH 416 or better still MKH 60 for float mics.

Save the longer ones e.g. K6/ME67, MKH 816, MKH 70 for overheads etc.

 

The main advantage of the boundary mics over all the other types is you don't have the problems of the reflected sound from the stage surface bouncing up into the (rifle or other) mic and interfering with the direct sound because a boundary mic is on the stage surface. Before rifle mics became popular in this role it was common to use a cardiod mic close to, and pointing down at, the stage surface - sort of using boundary effect but before the boundary mic. AKG C 451's in foam mice were a popular choice.

[Bobbsy]

Well, I was about to do a longish reply but I can't top AndyL's excellent post (which maybe should go in the Wiki...hint hint!).

 

A couple of things to maybe add:

 

First, way back when, I played with using 416s across the front of the stage but the results were disappointing. I've had far better luck with PCC160s on the stage front then using something like the 416 farther upstage, aimed in from the wings at specific areas that needed help. As AndyL says, you need the director's help in blocking things to be in an area you can pick up. In my experience, shotguns from up above the stage pointing down are next to useless. If you do any hanging it has to be well out front.

 

A second way I've tried that DOES work is to use 451s with short extension tubes down on the front of the stage. This keeps the large part of the mic low and inobtrusive with only the capsule and a small tube showing--obviously the director will have to okay this. Surprisingly, the extra 18 inches of height makes a fairly big difference to the pickup you can get...and the less tight pattern combined with mics spaced about six feet apart gives a more natural sound and (with careful mixing) minimises phase errors. The mixing when somebody is walking across the stage is not for the faint hearted though!

 

Otherwise, back to Andy's excellent post.

 

Bob

[AndyL]

Well, I was about to do a longish reply but I can't top AndyL's excellent post (which maybe should go in the Wiki...hint hint!).

 

{SNIP}

In my experience, shotguns from up above the stage pointing down are next to useless.

{SNIP}

 

Bob

 

Thanks for the kind words Bob. I will consider the Wiki suggestion!

Yes, I didn't say, and perhaps should have, that not all of the techniques I mentioned actually worked that well! But people used to do it. I did have an experience with 3 x MKH 816's suspended (too) high over the midstage area, brailed so as to point slightly upstage (i.e. towards where the band were, groan!) rather than vertically downwards which, by the time they had been eq'd to hell, did give reasonable amounts of "gain". It did, to quote a colleague at the time, sound "rather like a 10,000 Watt telephone". What can I say, it wasn't my design, and that certainly wasn't the worst thing about the show or the sound design! :blink:

 

There is a reason after all it seems why it is now normal to put the whole cast on radio mics! :huh:

 

In the end it is all about managing peoples expectations. In a world of 5.1 cinema surround sound at home will people still accept 'a little light reinforcement'?

 

I should also mention that the suspended rifle mics overhead thing is quite a different matter if it is for recording purposes (e.g. opera), rather than amplification - no gain-before-feedback issues when you are only using them for recording - a difference that seemed however to be lost on at least one sound designer...

[dymondaudio]

what brilliant replies, thanks for the help, its given more lots to consider when planning where and what mics etc. The producer is of a slightly old fashioned kind and as such radio mics, "what are radio mics? they must be some new source of trickery".

 

Thanks again guys and if anyone else has their 2p worth to add then please do!