Noise control petition

[Hugh]

Apologies of you have already had an e mail about this, or if someone else has posted about this.

 

The Government wish to introduce laws making it a legal requirement to insist anyone applying or re-applying for an entertainment license must have a noise control device fitted to the venue. This will be the final nail in the coffin for all entertainment in the UK.

 

Please sign the Government petition against this fun-stopping hair-brained idea!

 

Most of you already know what these evil devices are but for those of you who don't, they're a cut-off device that switches off power to the sound system if a band or performer is too loud. In some circumstances this might not seem like such a bad idea, but in reality the powers that be that decide on what the threshold is for the unit to activate itself do not yet understand how to implement a realistic and viable method of such control. Noise levels are an extremely complicated and extremely variable measurement to consider. No two venues are the same (even if they try to be).

 

For those who have not mixed a show with one of these devices in place, in my experience an acoustic drum kit un-amplified can cause them to cut the power.

 

 

Sign the petition on the UK government website before 23rd January by going to:

 

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/

[paulears]

Hold on!

 

A little research seems to indicate that there is no actual evidence of any impending Government activity on this front, apart from the recently introduced noise 'dosage' levels that are part of the general Heath and Safety Legislation about exposure which we've known about for ages. The petition seems poorly worded and includes the word 'Love' in the justification for the complaint.

 

I did find this from a knowledgeable source

Well, I just had a quick look at DCMS second stage consultation on amending the licensing act and I cannot see any mention of such an amendment.

There should, if I understand legislation properly be a white paper - but I can't find it.

 

I suggest until we check the verification of this statement, we don't respond in our usual outraged manner, as it could just be the rumour mill working overtime.

[SoLiEn]

better to be safe then sorry. *signed* oh and ive been in a venue where an APPLAUSE sets the fekking thing off.

[mervaka]

to be honest, there are better ways of regulating this than cutting power, but I'm coming on for 23 at best and already have hearing damage (tinnitus, etc) so don't think it isn't well intentioned, the danger is there.

 

acoustic drum kits and small venues just really don't work together. I'm looking at ways I can reduce stage volumes on small stages so that my PA doesn't have to go up so bloody high!

[Dmills]

Ref the white paper thing, thinking about it,I am not sure that one would actually be required, this sort of thing has the smell of something that could be done under delegated authority by the DCMS.

 

I still think that someone misunderstanding the NAW regs is the most likely source for this story.

 

The NAW regs do of course apply to performers, and seeing some noise dosimetry data for a range of bands and stages would IMHO be fascinating, but would I suspect risk opening some folks up to prosecution so I doubt that anyone is going to make the data public.

 

Regards, Dan.

[Pete McCrea]

it was emailed to me today, but I've held of signing. There's been no mention in any of the press I read regarding this, so assumed someone's got the wrong end of the noise at work regs.

[lightsource]

As far as noise limiting devices in venues goes, who's going to pick up the cost of failed equipment......

 

Any PA has a switch off sequence, Power Amps first, then the rest.

 

A lot of us use computers in some way, weather Digtal desks, PC's or Media Servers, all of which need a shut down sequence to save current settings.....back up etc.

 

I see it as a potential problem, where equipment failure could become a reality, or at very least, valuable work lost, because a limiter cut the supply to the computer / desk that was being programmed.

 

Edit.....typo's

[Charlie Jeal]

As far as noise limiting devices in venues goes, who's going to pick up the cost of failed equipment......

 

Any PA has a switch off sequence, Power Amps first, then the rest.

 

A lot of us use computers in some way, weather Digtal desks, PC's or Media Servers, all of which need a shut down sequence to save current settings.....back up etc.

 

I see it as a potential problem, where equipment failure could become a reality, or at very least, valuable work lost, because a limiter cut the supply to the computer / desk that was being programmed.

 

Edit.....typo's

 

If this is true looks like manufacturers of UPS' are in for a boost, at least then you get time to reboot/switch off the digital gear.

 

Charlie

[Simon Lewis]

AFAIK, there's no "noise" from the ISCE or IOA regarding this...

 

Furthermore, such devices are often easy to circumvent, often end up being "doctored" and are recognised as not necessarily being the answer to noise problems.

 

Usually, these devices are fitted to provide control over environmental noise impact (I.e not related to CONAWR). The ones I have been involved with were calibrated by those who had extremely good knowledge of the acoustic theory and practice involved, but invariably the level set (that provided a satisfactory level at the complainant's property) was too low as far as the pub/club was concerned.

 

The old style entertainment licences very often used environmental impact as a control measure for noisy pubs and clubs - so nothing new here.

 

Until there is something more substantial to support this story, it would be better to NOT sign the petition, lest the whole mechanism become completely devalued.

 

Simon

[Rob_Beech]

Hugh, from your website I see that you appear to have alot of exceptional equipment in your inventory. Noted with this is the fact that you appear to primarily use Line arrays. The dV-DOSC to be precise. (Along with ARCS).

 

Surely as line arrays are the in thing and do exactly what people say they do ( :D ) then problems with such limits from electronic devices that impede performance in the way they do should be minimised due to the "even coverage" characteristics we associate with line array technology.

 

We need to address the underlying issues here. Over the years I've worked along side many noise control "apparatus" from electronic devices to someone shouting turn it up or down. They are set as they are for DIFFERENT purposes. I would say that 95% of these where a device in the form of a noise limiter (that cuts off the power etc) have been more than reasonable when finding a suitable compromise between level indoors for an event and level at a neighbouring property whereby the owners (all be it moving in some 70 years after the venue was erected) have complained. The politics involved with this are completely irrelevant. There ARE devices which are set unreasonably low, acoustic drums exceeding the threshold and even audience participation and applause doing the same. However, this is in very few cases out of a massive number of venues.

 

The noise at work regulations are IMO appropriate and at times perhaps on a case by case example in extreme conditions somewhat lenient. I see no problems with installing suitably calibrated and positioned equipment to adhere to these laws/guidelines.

 

As for the VERY few venues that have limiters set to unusable thresholds, then every act that goes there has the same problem as the ones you and me are working for on that particular day, the regular audience members will be used to the issues and will sympathise.

 

As for the systems being used in these instances (and in any instance with electronic measuring devices such as noise limiters) a little bit of common sense and a good understanding of Sound reinforcement and acoustics goes a long way. This is something that can be the difference between tripping the power 7 times and getting through the show. Something I can only assume you have. It's probably therefore less of a problem to such as yourself than you may think.

 

It is the people with little knowledge (the ones that buy a second hand PA and can play guitar so think I can make a bit of cash on the side at this job and then go out for peanuts as they have no overheads) that will suffer. I'm sure you'll agree that this is not a bad thing.

 

 

Rob

[Simon Lewis]

Just to highlight the two issues here....

 

Control of Noise at Work limits are based on an 8 hour Leq (or 1 week Leq) for workers, and despite what many misinformed people think, it isn't necessary to limit noise exposure to a maximum of 85dB(A) - there is a pro rata trade off between time and intensity (half the time, add 3dB etc.). If the background level was otherwise OK, a band could play in a pub at 94dB(A) for 1 hour a day, five days a week for 40 years and not exceed the Noise at Work limits for workers in that area.

Of course, if it's a club playing an average 94dB(A) for 8 hours a day, then it's a completely different matter. However, a noise limiter isn't usually the best way to manage work related noise exposure.

 

Environmental Noise is often a 'public nuisance' and may be judged subjectively by a local authority officer, and/or judged against limits such as the World Health Organisation's recommendation of 30dB(A) night time noise in a domestic bedroom.

Here, mere audibility of entertainment noise may be judged as a nuisance (although there is much debate on the subject, since measurement at the point of audibility is fraught with problems) - so the limits required in a pub or club to achieve low levels at neighbouring properties may appear draconian. It is in the pub/club's interest to a) be suitably sited (i.e. away from residential properties) and b) have suitable noise control measures to prevent environmental impact from building or entertainment noise (i.e. fans, chiller units, open windows; loudspeaker placement, spectral response, noise level etc.).

Such issues are an integral part of the council's consideration in any premises licence application. An automatic limiter (but not necessarily a mains contactor) is one of the tools available to the council - but certainly not the only one.

 

 

Simon

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Ref the white paper thing, thinking about it,I am not sure that one would actually be required, this sort of thing has the smell of something that could be done under delegated authority by the DCMS.

 

Dan,

 

such a move would probably be unworkable - since virtualy every pub and club in the land would need a system installing, setting up, recalibrating, finding there's a piece of chewing gum over the mic, finding that the band have plugged into the unprotected socket in the next room etc., etc.

 

The NAW regs do of course apply to performers, and seeing some noise dosimetry data for a range of bands and stages would IMHO be fascinating, but would I suspect risk opening some folks up to prosecution so I doubt that anyone is going to make the data public.

 

Not so... make yourself a cuppa, sit down and read this report...

 

Simon

[johndenim]

Just my opinion.

 

I work on the 'lower end' of the scene, mainly working mens clubs that kind of thing.

A lot of these clubs are now installing these units, fine, if it WAS a reasonable level, but why do they have to be set so low?

I understand that neighbours complain, and quite rightly so, but I have noticed that low frequencies set these things off.

 

So I go into a club, set up my new blackline rig, ( :D ), hi/mids and subs.

Bang!, instant power off.

Joe blogs goes in with his skytecs, thrashes the cr*p out of his mid range, deafening everyone in the place, meter only touching green?

Logical?

 

We all strive for a good sound with expensive kit.

If this goes through is it worth it?

 

* a tip.

If you DO get to a club with one of these in, plug your equipment into an outlet in the dressing room. ;)

[Rob_Beech]

It's clearly the LF that is the cause of the problems with neighbours. The HF won't travel halfway up the road. the LF will. Careful eq to find the offending frequencies in the LF will minimise the problem.

 

Careful placement of the boxes will also help.

 

John, you can turn down your entire system to a level that is passable. Also turning down just the components that are causing problems if EQ isn't effective enough. such as throttling back the subs a few dB.

 

It's alot more difficult for a band where by the acoustic noise particularly with a drum kit can often register significantly on the meter.

 

Every act that goes there has to be quieter than they'd wish, Joe who's sat in that seat for 47 years is used to it.

 

Whilst I appreciate thing may be starting to change if the facts made by Hugh are correct, initially it was the BANDS fault in most cases for these things being produced. If the bands had not wanted to be 110dB at the back of the room with enough sub to keep an arena entertained in the first place then none of this would have happened.

 

It's a bloody heavy band if you catch me mixing at over 100dB so why a 4 piece country band need to take 6 stacks of 850 into a 240 capacity working mens club I'll never know.

[mervaka]

its also worth bearing in mind that the measurements the councils often use are C weighted, not A. this means the low (and high) end has a lot more to answer for! at least the local councils down here use C weighting..

[Dmills]

Having read that study that Simon posted a link to, I suspect that THAT might be where the concern is coming from as it does mention the possibility, but like Simon, I think it would most likely be unworkable in practise (Especially given the views expressed by the council licensing departments - Noise at work is not their responsibility). That study is also dated 2006, so I am a little puzzled by the timing on that petition.

 

The consultants also suggest that a maximum legal level be defined for audience exposure, which while not a totally horrible idea, would IMHO again be very difficult to enforce in reality (Where do you measure apart from anything else, and you would get the muppets saying it was below threshold and therefore 'safe').

 

That study, by the way is seriously interesting in that while it addresses the larger end of the show production game, it does indicate the magnitude of the problem (And those peak levels are scary), It would be interesting to know if anything much has changed over the last few years (but I doubt it).

 

Regards, Dan.