UK "Safety Passports"?!

[Seano]

It basically proves that you have basic health and safety knowledge.

 

No it doesn't. It may indicate that you have some knowledge, but it only proves that you attended a short course and that you retained the contents of each module of that course for long enough to pass a very simple test. (ie: up to about an hour).

[JDP]

I did SPA training last year, at PRG who warned all their freelancers that they would soon be requiring all staff to hold the safety passport.

 

The good thing was, PRG were providing staff training at a discounted rate for freelancers. Never pass up any opportunity for training, I say.

 

IF PRG insist that their freelancers hold these things, they should be doing them for free.

 

I do a lot of freelance work for PRG (in the US) and since I have been back in the UK doing occasional one-offs, I have not been asked for it.

 

Quite frankly, I am sick of being told to shell out on training otherwise you can't work for a company...

 

Since doing this, Indyld, how many calls have you had from PRG giving you work? With no offense to you and your abilities/skills, I am guessing the answer to be 0. And, if I am right, it goes to show it was a complete waste of your time and money it was...

 

I think its absolutely a good idea to keep H&S within industries (sensibly), but creating these passes is going to become tiresome.

[Pete McCrea]

My comment was more aimed at making sure the less observant realised it was posted by someone involved with the company than to make any point about them. I have never used them, or dealt with them, however Lightnix personal recommendation would count for more IMO.

 

As to whether SPA's are required, I can honestly say that I have never been asked for one. We roll our prod rack to shows with all the relevant documents in (RA's MS's PLI, ELI certs PAT documents), and have we ever been asked for them? Have we heck.

 

Do I think that we need to improve elf and safety. Yes. No one should go to work and be injured due to something avoidable taking place. I say it like this, because I think people such as the "My boss gave me the wrong ladder to fit the fire alarm and I fell off it and the lovely people at 'We'll-sue-their-ass-for-you.com' helped me win £30k" types need to take responsibility for their actions, as well as people receiving the relevant training to ensure they are safe and have the knowledge and experience to help them take judgement calls. As others have said, whether this can be given in a day is something I'm not 100% sure on.

 

I also believe in survival of the fittest and natural selection....

 

And the best piece of H&S advice was given on my first day on site on the railway- Don't put your hand where you won't put your pecker. A piece of advice that is actually applicable to a multitude of scenarios :D

[indyld]

Since doing this, Indyld, how many calls have you had from PRG giving you work? With no offense to you and your abilities/skills, I am guessing the answer to be 0. And, if I am right, it goes to show it was a complete waste of your time and money it was...

 

JDP you guess wrong. Not sure what skills or abilities you think that might I lack to work for PRG... (I actually since asked them to remove me from their freelancer list - I don't find working for larger companies particularly good for my business . I am generally not keen on the big guys attitude towards freelancers, as I think we have discussed before. I don't believe that the big companies should use their buying power to treat small businesses like casual staff without employing them as such. This isn't aimed at PRG, just the industry in general.)

 

The point is, I didn't see the situation like you do. I saw it as the opportunity to get another blasted piece of plastic as a significant discount to market rate. It may turn out to be a wise investment, it may not. If anyone I work with insists on X or Y I consider my own wishes and benefits to me, not them. If I hadn't wanted to do the SPA, I would have just declined . I'm really not that short of work.

 

Best wishes as always,

[MarkA74]

And the best piece of H&S advice was given on my first day on site on the railway- Don't put your hand where you won't put your pecker. A piece of advice that is actually applicable to a multitude of scenarios ;)

 

Oh that made me chuckle! How very very true! :D

[JDP]

Since doing this, Indyld, how many calls have you had from PRG giving you work? With no offense to you and your abilities/skills, I am guessing the answer to be 0. And, if I am right, it goes to show it was a complete waste of your time and money it was...

 

JDP you guess wrong. Not sure what skills or abilities you think that might I lack to work for PRG...

 

 

Sorry, thats what I meant about the no offense bit... I didn't think you had a lack of skill, I guessed it was likely PRG emailed everyone to tell them they needed it, got in all these people for this course - then just carried on using the same old faces.

 

I too agree that PRG, in particular Greenford do not look after their freelancers the way they should. I also think its fair to say they in recent years have become more corporate-ised in their methods towards looking after equipment, freelancers, and indeed their clients... which is why a mixture of both freelancers and clients are moving towards other companies, who can offer a better service to them. But thats all for another discussion somewhere else.

 

Don't rule out all big companies, some of them are fine, and look after you perfectly. However, you just happened to pick the one that isn't :D

[Chris Hannam]

We are currently looking for a suitable training room to hire in London and Birmingham to run safety passport courses, if anyone has or knows of suitable rooms perhaps they could let us know on 07831 437062 or info@stagesafe.co.uk The dates we require for London are March 11 or 12.

 

We require the access to the room at approximately 08.30 to set up our projector and screen so we can be ready for a 09.00 start, we finish as 04.30.

 

We have a maximum of 15 candidates on the course and 2 instructors, we simply need tables and chairs (in a horse shoe) for the candidates and a coupe of chairs and tables at the front for the instructors, we also need parking for one car.

 

The room needs to be conducive to learning, i.e. comfortable temperature and no interruptions, toilet facilities should be nearby. Tea and coffee making facilities are most welcome.

 

Many thanks.

 

Chris Hannam.

[Simon Lewis]

Training is a means of achieving COMPETENCE as well as a means of increasing SAFETY and PRODUCTIVITY.

Whilst I support the overall sentiments expressed, I am concerned that the terms "Training", "Safety Passport" and "Competent" may be seen as equal and interchangeable. The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 repeatedly asserts "A person shall be regarded as competent for the purposes of paragraph (.....) where he has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities....." (emphasis mine).

 

I would not decry such training scheme, but a single day's training - of itself - does not confer competence - or indeed 'ensure' increased safety or productivity.

 

Simon

[herb]

I would not decry such training scheme, but a single day's training - of itself - does not confer competence - or indeed 'ensure' increased safety or productivity.

 

Simon

 

Indeed it doesn't. I'm with Simon on this one...mostly (And Chris. And in fact many of you in some respects)

 

The same can be said to be true of the construction industry and it is getting increasingly difficult to even get on a site without CSCS which is in effect equivalent to SPA. Its not rocket science. Its not difficult. But it does go some way towards an individual demonstrating his committment to work safely if you like. A similar comment could apply to the National Rigging Cert as a way of demonstrating competence.

 

All the card does is show that you have made the effort to arm yourself with basic H&S information and have a basic understanding of the legal obligations.

Maybe you don't need the card but if you are a freelancer it is downright arrogant to suggest you don't need the information it imparts.

 

Of course there are a whole host of acceptable similar 'qualifications' but none that are designed as specific to the event industry. We have been given the option of regulating ourselves before we get regulated by people who have no idea how we work. The PSA drove this initially for the benefit of the industry. I would suggest that we accept it with open arms and just deal with it. Many London crew companies provide this passport now in recognition of the fact that production managers, venues etc need to cover themselves and hire competent people.

 

Having the card will reassure potential employers (or more importantly- if push comes to shove- the HSE/LA/Lawyers) that by this evidence , they show they have taken reasonable precautions to ensure the person working is competent. Of course there are other things that demonstrate competence such as 'gave me his/her cv' or ' recommended by and industry colleague' or 'holds public liability insurance'. (Personally I would look for all these things when hiring someone.) For example. How often do event site managers hand out the keys to the forklift without checking you are competent to use it? How do they check this? They ask for your ticket. Same difference.

 

Maybe there will come a time when you won't be able to go into a venue to work without such a card. Maybe there will come a time when no-one gets injured at work leading to them spending months in a hospital bed and the company they worked for going out of business due to a fine from HSE of quarter million quid or much much more and the MD imprisoned. ( check out H&S offences act and sentence guidelines coming into effect very soon)

 

For all those who think they 'don't need no stinkin card' then fine...get on with it...but don't come to me when you can't get work because your clients lawyers insist on it or worse...when another act of parliament demands it. If it all comes down to cost then shop around as I daresay, if you can get a reasonable group together, you could negotiate the training providers fee plus the fixed costs from SPA.

 

Rant over.

Have a safe day.

Herb

 

PS I am not a training provider or supplier. I would however recommend a number of people who deliver this course. Chris included.

[Seano]

But it does go some way towards an individual demonstrating his committment to work safely if you like.

Hardly. If such a scheme is effectively compulsory, it merely demonstrates that an individual has handed over the requisite fee and attended the course. "Commitment to work safely" is a question more of attitude than knowledge, and is unlikely to be much influenced by any formal training, least of all an infrequently repeated (very) short generic course delivered entirely in a classroom.

 

Maybe you don't need the card but if you are a freelancer it is downright arrogant to suggest you don't need the information it imparts.

This is a strawman, nobody is suggesting that they don't need to know about H&S issues, and to question the worth of this scheme is not to do so.

(And of course the card itself imparts no information.)

 

in recognition of the fact that production managers, venues etc need to cover themselves

While often presented as such, the need and desire of employers to manage their liability has nothing to do with health or with safety. In my opinion the habit of conflating issues of liability with issues of elf'n'safety is the one thing which does most to bring the term "health and safety" into disrepute.

 

For example. How often do event site managers hand out the keys to the forklift without checking you are competent to use it? How do they check this? They ask for your ticket. Same difference.

So is asking to see the ticket of a forklift operator sufficient to ensure that that operator is competent? No, it isn't.

The ticket provides evidence of prior training not competence per se. Since the PUWER regulations require prior training, the site manager is wise to ask to see the card, but to unquestioningly accept it as proof that a plant operator is competent would be um... not so wise.

 

...but don't come to me when you can't get work because your clients lawyers insist on it or worse...when another act of parliament demands it

Once again, clients' lawyers, in as far as they get involved with operational decisions at all, are concerned with issues of liability, not with health or with safety.

As for an act of parliament coming into being to make a scheme like this compulsory in law - sorry, thats just complete rubbish.

[Pidpod]

The real danger of schemes like these is when site owners(NEC /EXCEL...) get the good idea that this would become essential have a safety passport to work on their sites !

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

 

 

For example. How often do event site managers hand out the keys to the forklift without checking you are competent to use it? How do they check this? They ask for your ticket. Same difference.

 

As a site manager yes I do require to see all licenses before crew are allowed to drive plant.

Unfortunately the reason I nowadays ask to see these tickets is that the difference between and "accident" and "reckless behavior " in the eyes of the company solicitors is a valid ticket to operate the plant.

[Tomo]

Here's a genuine question from the CSCS exam:

 

Qx) You see rats onsite. What should you do?

 

A) Inform your supervisor/foreman

B) Everybody should bring a cat to work

C) Try to kill the rats yourself

D) Ignore them

 

Which pretty much explains how useful these really are.