Show Control system that can start/stop/cue up a sequencer?

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly, I'd like to say hello here. This is my first post :D

 

Secondly, I am aware of various show control applications out there (from the immensly cheap to the immensly expensive), but I'm not sure if any of them will do what I want them to.

 

I am working on a workshop production of a new musical, and everything needs to be sync'd up - backing tracks (with automation), video projection, and lighting cues.

 

The equipment I have is:

 

- Cakewalk Sonar for the backing track playback.

- Hog3PC for the lighting cues.

- Arkaos GrandVJ for the video projection.

 

EVERYTHING needs to be triggered from MIDI. The original plan (and still the kinda plan I want to implement) has the Sonar PC mixing the audio and also sending MIDI Show Control and MIDI note signals to control the Hog3PC and GrandVJ systems.

 

The only problem is the cueing of the Sonar tracks. It is not a simple "press play and leave it" show. The tracks and cues are split up into many segments, all triggered by the MD.

 

Unfortunately, Sonar does not have a "stop at this point, and go to timecode XX:XX:XXX and wait for the go" function.

 

Is there a software system out there which can control Sonar (using MTC or MSC) so that when I press GO, it will play to a certain point, then receive a "stop" signal, a "cue to this point" signal, so that when GO is pressed again, it plays from that point (up to a certain point, then stops etc etc etc..)?

 

I'm not sure I've explained myself very well, but hopefully people will understand what I am trying to do.

 

Many thanks,

 

Martin Hughes

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Ok I've just been doing a bit more reading around, and I *think* what I need is a piece of software that will transmit MIDI Timecode to the sequencer device, and which has an internal clock that can be stopped / started at certain timecode points on GO (which should stop and start the sequencer at these cue points).

 

So I would have (for example):

 

Cue 1 - Start at timecode 0:0:0:0.00 / End at timecode 0:0:10:0.00

 

Cue 2 - Start at timecode 0:0:10:0.01 / End at timecode 0:0:30:0.00

 

Etc etc...

 

Does this sound like a realistic idea?

 

I have limited experience of MIDI Timecode, but from experience it can be a bit stuttery and take a while to sync up. Is this right?

 

Thanks,

 

Martin

[Caldair]

Let's see if we can make this simpler to do... :)

 

Are you sure the Hog can't cue Arkaos via ArtNet etc? I've never worked with MIDI nor Hog3PC, I'm afraid, but have done this with Arkaos and a MagicQ.

 

Why does it have to be all timecoded? Unless you have recorded(!) music running from start to finish the actors' timing will differ a little bit every show, and at some point the music and fancy lights will start two lines early.

If you *can* timecode the whole thing, you can make one continous video file with sound. :D

 

Arkaos can run sound files, by the way...

If whatever you end up using for the sound files can't pause, skip and wait for cue, why not use separate sound files?

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks for the reply Caldair!

 

I will look into Hog controlling Arkaos. I'm not sure if it can be done or not.

 

The timecode runs because there are a lot of seqences where the projection needs to sync with the audio and lighting cues.

 

Unless you have recorded(!) music running from start to finish

 

Much of it is! We have 2 guitars, a bass, drums, and 3 keyboards live. The rest of it (orchestra, synths, and sound effects) are click tracked.

 

If you *can* timecode the whole thing

 

That would be ideal, but there is dialog involved, and the odd vamp here and there (played by the live band).

 

For example, one sequence starts with daybreak as the song starts (so that would be a GO). At the end of the first verse, it goes to night (LX and projection - the lights change and the projection transitions from the looped daylight sequence, through the sunset sequence, and then to the looped night sequence), then at the end of the second verse we go back to day etc etc.

 

At the end of the song. There is some dialog with *live* underscore played by the band, a couple of LX cues (manual GOs), and then we're back into a click tracked number (with associated LX and projection MIDI Show Control messages).

 

Arkaos can run sound files, by the way...

 

I had heard that, but this is a surround sound show, and there are several audio stems to be sent to the FOH desk and mixed live. They are remaining separate because the acoustic will vary from venue to venue and the sound op wants to retain mixing control over the tracks, and also the ability to edit the automation parameters of the premix.

 

I hope that explains things better? It sounds horribly complicated (and to an extent it is) but in reality all I want is a cueing system which can start/stop/restart - and cue to certain points in - a MIDI Timecode timeline...

 

Thanks,

 

Martin

[daveecs]

Hi Martin,

 

 

There are many ways of doing this, not sure if there is a best way. The cheapest would be to simply hook the audio playback and hog desk together via MIDI so either the lighting console or audio can start cues, then the lighting console can send MIDI commands or DMX signals (I belive) to the ArKaos..... a cheap but not very clean way of doing things.

 

If you were up for replacing the Sonar, I would stronly recomened the SoundMan-Server from Richmond Sound Design this will give you a show controller capable of sending out all your MIDI commands as well as a hugly powerful playback software which is ideal for your surrond sound needs as it has 'unlimited' number of outputs (the pricing is scalable).

 

However if money is not an option and you wanted some room to grow then Medialon Manager software will control anything and everything easily giving you control of everthing by touchscreen (with their free software for the touchscreen) if you you so wanted and will also control things like your projectors etc from one control postion.

 

So, the cheapest way would to just have a GO command sent from Sonar to the Hog and then the Hog send a stop command back when needed. With a MIDI merger, the hog or Sonar can also send commands for the AV.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Dave

[Tomo]

The first thing to do is to find out how to make Cakewalk Sonar output MIDI timecode - probably using a USB MIDI dongle.

Unless it can do this, you're going to be completely stuck and will need to find alternative playout software.

 

Timecode *must* be synced to audio and clicktrack. You can usually fiddle video (except for lipsync) to make it fit another timecode, but you cannot do this to audio without it sounding absolutely horrible.

 

The Hog II can listen to MIDI timecode directly, so I would expect the Hog III to be able to do so as well.

 

The network-enabled Wholehog III systems can definitely output Artnet, which Arkaos can listen to - that's almost certainly the best way to do your video playout, as Arkaos is a quite capable media server. (Try to limit the number of Artnet universes though, as it is a truly evil protocol)

 

If you don't have a network-enabled console, then you can hire a suitable DMX-to-USB or Network converter that is compatible with Arkaos. There are quite a few different ones available.

 

So the route I would go down is very simple:

 

1) Find out how to make your audio playout software output MIDI timecode directly.

- If it can't, then replace it with one that can.

2) Distribute this timecode to the lighting (and possibly sound) consoles.

3) Control Arkaos using the lighting console.

4) Set the timecode triggers as needed into the lighting console cuelist.

 

Some sound consoles can also listen to MIDI or SMPTE timecode if the sound engineer wishes to automate this way.

 

For the playout, you play a different section of the total recording for each number, and have a 'dead spot' or 'auto-pause' between numbers.

- Similar to playing an audio CD in 'pause-after-each-track' mode.

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks Dave and Tomo :P This is very useful (and forcing me to think through the way I am doing things to se if I can simplify it).

 

If you were up for replacing the Sonar

 

In theory, I am up for replacing it, but I have several licenses of the blo**y thing floating around, so it would be good to use them.

 

The first thing to do is to find out how to make Cakewalk Sonar output MIDI timecode - probably using a USB MIDI dongle.

 

Sonar can indeed transmit MIDI timecode. From the manual:

 

If your projects contain MIDI and audio, or only audio, you should set the clock source to Audio. This lets the sound card clock determine the correct speed for audio playback and automatically synchronizes MIDI playback to match the audio. For more information, see System Configuration. You cannot use the tempo ratio controls when using the audio clock, because the audio playback speed is determined by the audio clock.

 

When either of these clock sources is used, you can also configure SONAR to drive other MIDI devices using MIDI Synchronization. For more information, see MIDI Synchronization. If you need to send MIDI Time Code (MTC), SONAR will send this data regardless of the clock setting.

 

I am using a Tascam FW1804 audio interface, with 4 MIDI outputs.

 

I don't think there will be any need to sync the sound console up. It will have to be wordclocked up though (the FW1804 outputs an 8 channel ADAT lightpipe to the desk).

 

4) Set the timecode triggers as needed into the lighting console cuelist.

 

<snip>

 

For the playout, you play a different section of the total recording for each number, and have a 'dead spot' or 'auto-pause' between numbers - Similar to playing an audio CD in 'pause-after-each-track' mode.

 

So Tomo, can I ask if you mean that the GO button is the lighting desk GO? Although Sonar is the timecode source, the Hog is the trigger?

 

And you think that the Hog controlling the media server over ArtNet is preferable to triggering transitions and changes via MIDI notes from Sonar?

 

the lighting console can send MIDI commands

 

Dave - can it? I will double check the manual. If the Hog can output MIDI Show Control commands (and, even better, MIDI note commands), then there is another way to do it without bothering with timecode and syncing... I can use the soft sampler Kontakt 3 (again, several licenses floating around) to host the tracks, and trigger them via MIDI notes using the Hog.

 

Sorry to sound like such a newbie, but, well... I am :** laughs out loud **:

 

Many thanks to you both,

 

Martin

[dbuckley]

I'm going to confine my comments to the actual question you posed.

 

Pretty much every decent show control piece of software ever built software will provide the functions you require, which is upon a GO stimulus of some kind, will send a MMC (MIDI Machine Control) command to Sonar causing it to start playing (and outputting timecode, assuming you configure it that way) from the current point.. The Show Controller will then read the timecode generated by Sonar, and when it gets to the right point, send a MMC "Stop" command. A little bit later it can send a MMC Locate command to line Sonar up for the next section.

 

I'm assuming Sonar supports MMC, which must be a safe assumption...

 

The show contrlller with which I am most familiar is PCStage, it it certainly can do what is required to manage this situation, and for this kind of application is one of the lowest cost bits of software, and it can do everything MIDI you can dream of.

 

You also mention "triggered by the MD" and "I press the GO button" - With PCStage you could have a button by the MD that connects to your PC's Joystick port (may need a USB joystick converter in these days of socket free PCs) so he has the start button, or indeed any MIDI message he can provide from anything in the band.

 

There are a number of other ways of crumbling this particular cookie, as others have suggested, but if you've already settled on Sonar as the master, and are happy with that, then stick with it, there is no disadvantage or problem with having Sonar as the boss.

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

dbuckley - thank you very much for your reply as well.

 

Sonar does indeed support MMC (going OT for a moment - for a sequencer that is used mainly by hobbyists I have found it to have features that surpass many "pro" DAW systems. I'm a Nuendo and Pro Tools user, and Sonar has consistently outperformed them).

 

PCStage looks very good. I have downloaded the demo and will test it out. Thanks for that pointer... you don't see it on many Show Control software lists.

 

You also mention "triggered by the MD" and "I press the GO button"

 

Yes. I should have explained myself better. I am the MD (and the designer, and the assistant director, and the.....). This is a workshop production of a show that I have been heavily involved in the development of, and one reason we want to go with this horribly complicated system is that it means we can workshop on a minimal budget (personnel) but achieve (hopefully) amazing things by spending the money we have on equipment and "tangible" assets for the show.

 

The trigger will be a keyboard input from me or one of the keyboard players (or a combination of them).

 

So, there are several ways to skin this particular cat. The 2 options I have worked out to be probably the best for my situation are below. A picture is worth a thousand words (or so someone once said):

 

http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr237/BleedingEdgeProductions/Misc/showcontrol.jpg

 

 

It is by design that the sequencer controls both the LX rig and the video rig. If the sequencer stops for any reason, the cues for LX and projection will not be triggered and therefore things will not get out of sync.

 

Option 2 is the preferred one (one less computer) - I am waiting to hear back from HighEnd regarding the MIDI capabilities. I know that one can send MIDI data as a macro on cue change, but I'm trying to find out exactly what MIDI data that is...

 

Does this look a realistic proposition?

 

Thanks,

 

Martin

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

(Ignore the 2 arrows sticking out of the top of the Sequencer computer in option 2. That's a mistake...)

[dbuckley]

I believe you can do option 2, as a Hog3 macro can send an arbitrary MIDI string. Just means you'll get used to hand encoding MMC locate commands

 

Happy reading: http://www.cakewalk.com/support/Docs/MMCandSYSX.asp :** laughs out loud **:

 

(Having said all that with PCStage you would still have to hand code MMC also: Outside of music production equipment MMC is generally poorly supported compared to MSC and even straight MIDI, but if you can create an arbitary MIDI message then you're home and dry.)

[mac.calder]

This is pretty standard in the cruise ship industry - the 'old' standard was to use Richmond Sound Design's Showman - it is purely show control, no audio playback - I believe that licenses are now fairly reasonable. Just like PC Stage, you can hook up a joystick to control it - or my prefered method - crack open a PC keyboard and wire the F9->F12 buttons to a "remote".

 

The new standard way is not so cheap and very much overkill for your situation... Meyer LCS - it is a Multi-track/show control/DSP/Matrix Mixer in a box. It is a seriously cool piece of kit which is able to replace your sound console, show control PC and Multitrack playback device

[BleedingEdgeProductions]

Thanks for the Cake link! It seems to make sense. Brad at HES confirmed that any sysex string can be sent, and suggested a pretty good way of doing it:

 

Martin,

 

Using the MIDI string macro is the best option as you can easily define the exact SYSEX command you want to send. What I suggest is that you create blank scenes, each with a SYSEX command. Then in your show programming you can just trigger these via comment macros within your cuelist. Plus it is easy to edit/view the SYSEX commands by opening the Scene directory and putting it in spreadsheet view.

 

The other benefit is that you only have to type in the sysex commands one time and then reference the scenes via comment macros when you need them. This is exactly how I programmed the MIDI commands for the lasers on TransSiberian Orchestra.

 

As your example from the manual states, you can enter any SYSEX command string after you have defined the node type and number.

 

With the Cake support doc and MIDIOX I should be fine encoding the sysex into hex...

 

The new standard way is not so cheap and very much overkill for your situation... Meyer LCS - it is a Multi-track/show control/DSP/Matrix Mixer in a box. It is a seriously cool piece of kit which is able to replace your sound console, show control PC and Multitrack playback device

 

I just had a look at that. It looks amazing, but as you said it's overkill... Also Medialon Manager looked pretty good too, but with the pro version costing the earth (and I would have to get the pro version to get multiple timeline track events - the Lite version only has one) it's out of the question for this.

 

Thanks!

[dbuckley]

The new standard way is not so cheap and very much overkill for your situation... Meyer LCS - it is a Multi-track/show control/DSP/Matrix Mixer in a box. It is a seriously cool piece of kit which is able to replace your sound console, show control PC and Multitrack playback device

 

On initial glance, doesn't look that much different to the RSD audiobox, which after a decade of production is now consigned to the history pile, with all PC based software solutions replacing it. The new Soundman Server product is really impressive...

 

If the OP wants to go down the full show control path, there are plenty of really good solutions, but frankly, given he's clearly a musician and comfortable working in a timeline sequencer environment, I can't see any advantage to changing horses, especially (and not trying to be rude here!) for such a simple application.

[danburns]

However if money is not an option and you wanted some room to grow then Medialon Manager software will control anything and everything easily...

 

Sorry to be a pedant...but for Medialon, surely you mean "If money is no object". I've used the system as an operator whilst working at Alton Towers this season, and can confirm once set up, it's a very flexible system. We had one Medialon server running a more cue stack style with a go button, and one system temporarily installed for a halloween attraction which was virtually self operational with several sensor inputs (but could be overridden by the TSM on duty to allow for all eventualities)

 

It controls anything you can throw at it (and IIRC, you can also create your own MXM files - Medialon's version of fixture libraries) and more! You can get a demo from their website, but need their dongle to run a show.

 

I *do* know it's expensive initially, but it's bloody good at what it does!

 

Dan

[Tomo]

So Tomo, can I ask if you mean that the GO button is the lighting desk GO? Although Sonar is the timecode source, the Hog is the trigger?

Not really.

What happens is that the lighting console has a cuelist, with the various cues that make up the show.

An operator could manually run the show by hitting the Go button at the right moment.

 

Instead, we configure the console to operate itself.

Attached to each 'step' or 'cue' in the cuelist is a timecode - either manually entered or 'learned'.

When the console receives the timecode for that step, it runs it.

 

So some sections of a show could be timecoded and thus play automatically, while others are not.

This is usually better than MSC as you have more control over playback from the console, plus it eliminates an MSC unit - your playback software can already make MIDI timecode, so why add an additional piece of equipment?

 

And you think that the Hog controlling the media server over ArtNet is preferable to triggering transitions and changes via MIDI notes from Sonar?

Yes - Arkaos controlled by MIDI is a very limited beast. It can only playback pre-defined items in pre-defined ways.

- This is mostly because MIDI itself is quite limited. There aren't many controllers, and notes only have velocity.

 

Controlled by DMX you have complete control over all of it, and can easily makes changes by adjusting the programming of the lighting console.

[runawaymartin]

Hi Guys . . . I realise that this thread's a bit old now but I've been doing a few shows over the past couple of years or so and am using a great piece of software you may be interested in.

 

The shows consist of a live band using some additional pre-recorded backtracks (strings, brass etc...). We're running 7 tracks of Audio (could be more if required), 1 audio 'Click' track, and a MIDI file which operates lights, reverb presets, my guitar pedal patch changes and keyboard prog. changes, Video, and just introduced recently, still images (great for band/show name and logos etc).

 

This is how I'm doing it . . . the whole lot is being run from one laptop (I actually have one running on XP and the back-up is running on VISTA), but you will need to have the facility to prepare the tracks and MIDI files beforehand . . I happen to be using Cubase.

 

From Cubase I create sub-mixes of all the tracks I need . . . these can be a mixture of mono and stereo. I then export a MIDI file containing any info I need . . . prog changes, note ON/OFF for lights etc... .

 

Now this is where it all comes together . . . The laptop is running a program called SCS (http://www.showcuesystems.com/idevaffiliate/idevaffiliate.php?id=100) where all the required files are loaded into and then it is used as a very sophisticated sort of jukebox. You can get a free demo from SCS . . . tell Mike I sent you.

 

Into each song created I then load the relevant audio files, MIDI file and Video file all programmed to start at the same time or with delays if required. You then build up a whole load of songs that are then simply displayed as a list on the main screen. Each song is started by the space bar, or a MIDI/USB footcontroller and at the end of that song it automatically cues at the beginning of the next song. You can easily scroll up or down if you change your running order on the fly.

 

The 'Click' track is actually an audio file and I use a drum 'stick' sound playing on every beat but you can use whatever you like . . . the beauty of using audio for 'Click' purposes is that you can also add voice prompting such as the count-in or lead–in chord for example.

 

At present the output for all this is running via an Edirol UA-101 but you could use any USB or Firewire interface (did have some problems with Firewire and VISTA combination) giving you multi-track audio outputs and a MIDI out.

 

The audio is then run to the mixer for FOH purposes (the 'Click' track is only fed to the drummer and anyone else on stage using in-ear monitoring). The MIDI signal is distributed to the devices mentioned above.

 

I'm not a lighting person so I can't actually tell you how the lights are working but anyone with some knowledge of MIDI->DMX will know what to do.

 

It sounds complicated but is in fact a very cost effective way to go.

 

Hope all of that makes some sort of sense . . . I'd be happy to assist anyone who wants to give this a go. Check out an article I wrote on SCS at http://www.soundachievements.com/SA_Web-Site_3/Live_Show_Control_-_Home_Page.html

 

 

 

Cheers . . . Martin